Today's Heartlift with Janell
Sometimes the story we tell ourselves is not really true. Sometimes the story others tell about us is not really true. On "Today's Heartlift with Janell," Author, Trauma-informed, board-certified marriage and family specialist, and Professional Heartlifter, Janell Rardon, opens conversations about how emotional health and mental fitness effects absolutely every area of our lives. When we possess and practice healthy, strong, resilient emotional health practices, life is so much better. Read Janell's newest book, "Stronger Every Day: 9 Tools for an Emotionally Healthy You."
Today's Heartlift with Janell
296. Trustworthy: Navigating Faith and Understanding with Dr. Ben Shaw
What if trustworthiness was the key to unlocking a deeper understanding of faith? Join us as we engage with Dr. Ben Shaw, the author of "Trustworthy: 13 Arguments for the Reliability of the New Testament," who shares his fascinating journey from a curious child passionate about ice hockey to a devoted follower of Christ. Through Ben's unique path, we uncover the profound connection between faith and scholarship, and his insights will inspire patience and hope for those navigating their spiritual journeys. This episode highlights Ben's dedication to making complex theological ideas accessible and relevant to everyone, emphasizing the cultivation of an informed spirituality.
Our conversation traverses the landscape of faith, curiosity, and understanding life's bigger questions. We discuss the challenges and reflections that come with aging, the role of curiosity in personal growth, and the significance of questioning in the pursuit of truth. Ben shares his academic journey, including his work with Dr. Habermas, shedding light on how to balance a career in business and teaching while effectively communicating religious beliefs. We also delve into the historical and cultural significance of ancient creeds, emphasizing their importance in preserving early Christian traditions.
Everyday believers play a crucial role in this narrative. We explore the importance of apologetics and discipleship in providing a strong foundation for faith, addressing the gap in spiritual education within some churches. Through compelling stories and practical advice, we discuss the necessity of engaging deeply with scripture and fostering environments where believers can grow in understanding and confidently articulate their faith. Whether you're rekindling your passion for daily Bible study or seeking meaningful, thought-provoking content, this episode provides the tools and inspiration for a vibrant spiritual journey.
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Thank you. Podcast at heartliftcentralcom. Now settle in for today's remarkable conversation with Janelle. Wherever you find yourself today, may these words help you become stronger in every way.
Speaker 2:Hello, heartlifter, where do you find yourself today? I find myself with this incredible book in front of me. I have a lot of books come across my desk or fill my inbox. We might say, and it's hard to say no, because I have a passion for authors and a passion for writing and for listening and for learning. But I have to stay true to the mandate of our community and that is to bridge the gap between faith and mental health and also to build a healthy sense of self, healthy behavior patterns and healthy communication skills, but also to develop a spirituality that is informed, dare we say intellectual. We say intellectual. I want to know the Jesus I believe in and be able to defend him.
Speaker 2:So in this book, trustworthy 13 Arguments for the Reliability of the New Testament came across my path by Dr Benjamin Shaw and the foreword by Gary Habermas, a foremost authority on the resurrection of Jesus. I just couldn't pass it up because I felt like we can learn from this young man who has had quite the journey himself to finding Christ, following Christ and now teaching about Christ. I love his story so much that I spent quite a bit of time on it, so we don't get to the book content until a little bit later. But what I got out of Ben's story is what I find most inspiring is that he had, from the very beginning of his life, as an only child, a voracious, voracious sense of curiosity. When you hear his story, you will understand what I mean. There is a thread of curiosity woven throughout his life and when you look back and listen to the trajectory of his life, you will see how God used his sports giftings to lead him, through a connection of dots, to a place in space on a college campus Liberty University where he became so curious and he developed a very beautiful, authentic relationship with Christ.
Speaker 2:I, heartlifters, I think you're going to love this conversation. It is going to give you great hope for people in your life and give you patience to wait as God connects the dots in their life. So would you please give a warm welcome to Dr Ben Shaw. Hello and welcome. Welcome to today's Heart Lift, where we are going to dig deep today. Yes, we are. We're going to put on our intellectual hats, our academic hat and also just our everyday believer hat. Can we just call you Ben, or should we call you Dr Ben?
Speaker 3:Yes, please call me Ben, just call me Ben.
Speaker 2:You worked hard to get that doctor. That's in my future, I hope. But welcome to this conversation.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to it. We've already had some exciting talks before we even started.
Speaker 2:I know I should hit record.
Speaker 3:Should be good.
Speaker 2:It's going to be great. First of all, the name of your book Trustworthy. Trustworthy is a word I have studied for decades because I was just so curious. I was curious enough to dive even out of an airplane and parachute, do that whole free fall thing, cause I wanted to understand what it felt like to really abandon myself. You know however silly that was. I wrote a whole Bible study on it, called Free Fall so. But that word trustworthy came out during that time and I want to just give the definition of that word for my heart lifters, because it means worthy. That's one of the tenets of our community. Here we have value, worth and dignity, worthy of confidence or dependability, something or someone that is completely reliable. Why did you choose that word? I understand how powerful a title is for an author.
Speaker 3:Yes. Well, I think it encapsulates what we're going for with the book, because one of the other angles of the book is that it's trustworthy at different levels. So you have different angles from which to ask is it trustworthy? So one of the things we were talking before we even started was that you said I was a good hockey player because I played hockey.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's so fun. You start out the book with you're a Floridian and you played ice hockey, which made me laugh out loud.
Speaker 3:Yes, it was a weird connection, but God knew what he was doing and that's what got me to Liberty in the first place as we were talking. The only reason I went to Liberty is because they had an ice hockey rink on campus, which is amazing High level. It's better now than even when I was there.
Speaker 2:They've got a jumbotron.
Speaker 3:It's crazy. Oh, wow, wow, okay. Yes, I've not been there in a while myself. Yeah, they, uh, it's a good show too. Uh, they do a good show. Um, we've taken our kids a few times, but so you could be, like you could go, ben, you're a good hockey player and you know I'm not going to say no or a bunch of reasons.
Speaker 3:But if you were to go, hey, ben Carolina, hurricanes are in town you should go skate with them. They're pretty good and you're good Like it's. It's the same thing, right? Like no, no, no, no no, no. They're good. Yes, but it's not in the. I'm not good in the same way. So there's different levels to good, and so there's different levels to trustworthy.
Speaker 3:And so, throughout the book, not only am I trying to like, synthesize a lot of academia and put it into hockey player jargon, to put it that way, not hockey player jargon. But you know, simplify it down, bring it down. Yeah, because I didn't go to school I, I did not care much for school I got that in the in the book.
Speaker 2:I just laugh out loud. How can I ask how old you are? Uh, I'm gonna be 40 soon, so I have a son, 33, 34 excuse me, oh my, they're 34 the twins yes, he went to liberty for about a year and broke, graduated from there. But yeah, yeah, so okay, right.
Speaker 3:Yes, I did shave before I came, so that usually makes me lose like 10 years.
Speaker 2:You don't look like you're going to be 40.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's so true. So I used to do insurance adjusting. So if you had a big fire at your house or major car accident or something, I'd come and look, and when they would see this guy looking like a high schooler showing up to their door, they would be like I'm trusting you with tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars and like yep you are.
Speaker 2:Well, Ben, okay, so you said you brought it up that you weren't really. Uh, we wouldn't call you a scholar back in the day, I'm guessing.
Speaker 3:No, yes, liberty was my fifth college, so I'd been around. Wow, do tell. Tell me why.
Speaker 2:Like this journey. The author's journey for me is so critically important and I think there's a lot of mamas that would love to hear your story. You jumped around.
Speaker 3:Why, yes, I did so. Part of my story and I share this too is that I got saved at a young age. My babysitter took me to church and so I heard the Sermon on the Mount. I got saved at that point. I recognized Jesus as Lord then, but I wasn't really discipled. I'd go with them to church when they would go, and those would be good oasises along the way. But I grew up in South Florida at the same time, so I'm getting bombarded with other worldviews, questions about relativism and postmodernism and things like that. However, I started playing hockey because I was pretty miserable. Like what's the point of life? What's the meaning? Like, this is pretty meaningless. I saw very wealthy people. I saw people who you know were very successful in certain areas, but it's very much Ecclesiastes for me, like okay, well, what?
Speaker 2:are you dealing with all this? What's the deal?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah thought is what's the deal like?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, but to notice that is uh says a lot about you well, I think that's just from god, teaching me those things about scripture at different points yeah, I didn't want to have those certain truths but drop the christian jargon. But you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It's like yes, I didn't have the christian uh language for it um, just recognizing those truths when they would be taught. And then then, um, but I was pretty miserable and I did. I did still want to get married. I wanted a wife, I wanted you know, and I thought playing hockey could be a good plus.
Speaker 2:play the guitar, play hockey, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Mine was playing hockey, because you could be small but be good at hockey, and I was in high school my freshman year. I was five feet. Five feet like 100 pounds, so I was really small wow, yeah um, and then I I got to like six feet and then my biggest in college was like 175, so like even still that's kind of small for for hockey. Not terribly small, there's whatever anyway yes, it's like a point guard.
Speaker 3:I did start playing hockey. I lived in Connecticut for three years playing hockey after I graduated. So I moved when I was 17 to Bridgeport, connecticut, and then I got traded to Norwich, connecticut, and I lived there for three years. So I went to two colleges there while I was up there just taking one class a semester because I should be in school doing something.
Speaker 2:Well, you're having a gap hockey season.
Speaker 3:Three gap years.
Speaker 2:So let me relate that to my son was a soccer player, so he played in the PDL, like Professional Development League. Is that kind of the league you were in? Or like if it's baseball you would be in.
Speaker 3:I was on. We call it junior hockey. Oh, okay, all right, yeah so, and we were independent, so we played some really good teams and we played some not so good teams. I wasn't at the highest level. I started when I was 15. So I started super late, so me even being up there was good for me.
Speaker 2:So that was formative, though I would say that was definitely formative in many ways.
Speaker 3:And part ways that was, I had realized. In connecticut it's very cold, it's very gray, there's a lot of snow. You gotta start your car 20 minutes before you want to go anywhere. You gotta shovel snow. It's like, well, I might as well go back to florida and play hockey, if I'm going to do that, and have warm palm trees around.
Speaker 3:So I did that I played for. I played at florida atlantic university for a year and then there's another school down there I had been going to occasionally called Broward community college, now Broward college. Then one of my friends was like, hey, why don't you go to Liberty? You can learn about God there. And I was like, oh, I can, I can do that on Monday and I'll start Monday. You know, kind of thing. Never did it. And then when I like, a couple of weeks later he's like well, they got an ice rink on campus, why don't you go to there? And I was like, well, dude, like how many hockey friends do you have with that next time? So I checked out the pictures of the rink it was built and I went and I got in and then from there I met the former hockey coach, who was Gary Habermas, and I was like, oh, that's cool. Then later on I came to find out he's the world's leading expert on Jesus's resurrection.
Speaker 2:Yes, fascinating.
Speaker 3:That was really neat. He and I started working together after like years down the line.
Speaker 2:But you were an assistant apprentice. However, you want to say that I studied with him.
Speaker 3:I mean we're still working together. He emailed me. We're emailing each other today about tasks that need to get done. But now it's just more of a like friendship. Friendship, yeah, yeah, because I officially stopped with him last year, okay, but we still work together. You know, when I went to Liberty again I wasn't discipled. So discipleship is a big thing for me now, because I didn't realize, I didn't know what I didn't know. So I came to Liberty, I didn't know, like who's Romans?
Speaker 2:like who's Romans. Who is that Like who's?
Speaker 3:Corinthians. I mean, who's that guy? And I'm like, oh wait, something. Yeah, I didn't know half the new Testament. So those were things I learned at Liberty, because you have to take those classes but also people want to talk about those things. At Liberty, not a lot of my friends wanted to talk about them, nor did I trust them to intelligently talk about them, like if you're going to play hockey, you want to learn from someone who knows how to stop who knows how to skate.
Speaker 2:You don't want to learn from someone who's fallen on the ice.
Speaker 3:Well, same thing with you know scripture yeah, so I'm assuming.
Speaker 2:let me make an assumption. Sorry to interrupt. I don't want to make an assumption that you were not raised in a Judeo-Christian home.
Speaker 3:We would go to church on Christmas and Easter and things like that. My parents go to church more now than they did then, so that's.
Speaker 2:So there was a knowledge of God, there was an acknowledgement of his presence.
Speaker 3:Yes, they didn't. They weren't against it or anything like that, but it was. I went to a Lutheran middle school and then a Catholic high school.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And then public school in the midst of that as well. So I'd been around a couple of different areas. So I had questions but I didn't know who to ask about them. But if you're-.
Speaker 2:I love this thread. There's a thread of curiosity in your life. That is very inspiring. Well, I don't?
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people have that. I mean, who doesn't I?
Speaker 1:know they do but we may not share it or be open about it.
Speaker 3:I'm an only child, so you know who am I going to talk to about it, got it? So your counseling background right now is just going oh, he's only tiny.
Speaker 2:I know I knew something weird about this guy, like what Enneagram number is he?
Speaker 3:I'm like, I'm not, I'm just, I didn't have anyone to talk to about those sorts of things. So, um, I was very happy to have someone uh at Liberty I, everybody basically and so I started asking those questions and uh, I was like, oh my goodness, there's like good answers here. Why do not more people talk about this? And so, yeah I, I just started asking those questions uh and getting answers to them, and initially I wanted to be my plan after I realized I wasn't going to the NHL.
Speaker 2:So sorry.
Speaker 3:I know I wanted to be Miss. America I know I get it.
Speaker 2:Same. Thing.
Speaker 3:You've got to yeah, you got to come to grips sometimes.
Speaker 2:You got to come to grips, just not in the cards.
Speaker 3:Yeah, some things, that there's prerequisites for some things, and starting hockey at 15 is not one of them.
Speaker 2:for look, look, look right, just stop. It's something I've been doing lately because I'm getting older, a lot older, and, uh, just celebrated 40 years of marriage and you just congratulations.
Speaker 2:You can't get to this point without going. I am getting old and so you know, looking back, looking back at the trajectory of life, you know you go gosh. I was just somewhere the other day and I went. God, I gave 11 years of my life here, the most vibrant time of my life. Why did I do that? There's just always those regrets and questions. So I love that you question, but I love your curiosity and I love how hockey was how God led you to the place to ask really hard questions and get good answers. Is that safe to say?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes. So when I was initially, I was a marketing major. That was my undergrad and I was told if you want to be law enforcement, get a business degree In case something happens. You got to fall back.
Speaker 1:And I wanted to help people, but I didn't know how to help people.
Speaker 3:But I realized, okay, well, if I want to help people, only God can do it. Like their problems are big. People have really, you know, people have really big problems. I'm not equipped to help them, but I know God can.
Speaker 2:You have really big problems. You know I'm not going to put myself outside that loop. Problems are big.
Speaker 3:And problems are big. And how's the everyday person, yeah, gonna help them? Well, I can't get a master's degree in it, right, like not everybody can get a master's degree, and how to talk? So how do we start doing that? And I was like, well, I need to know more about god, because god, god can, god has that power, he can do those sorts of things. So then I started asking questions about god and I love that all I want my kids to do, or anybody.
Speaker 2:It's just just like just ask questions ask questions and don't be afraid, Like that's what I was saying to you before we started. I I grew up more in the fear-based evangelical realm. You know, don't talk about evolution, Don't talk about this, Don't talk about this, Don't. And I am just so done. I want to be so knowledgeable and and be able to sit at the table and and and proffer and receive hard questions. So that's why you're here, Okay.
Speaker 3:So well, yeah, yeah, and those questions are good though, cause someone's asking him, even if they don't verbalize it a lot of the times they're listening, they're watching. I know that're watching Now that I think when we would do our road trips on the hockey team, one of the guys gave me a podcast to listen to where one of the guys would go to colleges and they'd ask him questions and I would listen. I'm like, oh yeah, that was a question I had, I'm glad he asked it. And then Intelligent Answers back.
Speaker 2:Oh lovely, oh, I got to keep.
Speaker 3:Now I know there's places to go to get these answers Right. That's what I started doing. And then I ended up getting a master's degree. I did religious studies as my master's, because I'm in South Florida, where there's a bunch of different worldviews. What's the difference between them? Is there evidential differences? Is all just the same thing? Are they just subtly different? And all those sorts of things. And then I still had questions. There's a professor up here who I had known. We saw him one day at church and I was like hey, we're trying to figure out what we're going to do. I'm married at this point and he's like well, why don't you be my teaching assistant and you can get your doctorate for free? And I was like it sounds like a plan.
Speaker 2:Sign me up, please. Where can I do that?
Speaker 3:So yeah, so I worked for him for one year and then I transferred over to Dr Habermas because his research assistant retired or he went somewhere else, and so I took that spot and that worked out really well for all of us. And then I did that, so I had a full time job while getting my degree, doing insurance research assistant and then getting the degree. So then that led me to I'm like, okay, part of my process was I graduated. And you know, I'm like thinking, okay, what are some ways God's calling me to use this? What do you give it? Cause I got all this stuff, like, what do I do with it? Do I use it in the business world, cause I'm doing insurance? Is that something I do? Or, um, cause I didn't? I mean, I do a little bit of teaching, but you'm not a full-time teacher, and so how do we wrestle with that? And so during this time I'm on a dissertation committee. This is for the founder of Core Apologetics. His name is Ron Davis.
Speaker 3:And he's doing his dissertation on religious emotional doubt. So Ron knows Dr Habermas as well, so I should back up Habermas. He is the world's leading expert on Jesus's resurrection. I got this big book right here, right there. It's a big good job. 1,050 pages on the historical method and evidence for Jesus's resurrection Wow, that's volume one of four. There's going to be four of those things. Wow. The second one is coming out in a month, almost exactly one month from today. Wow, and it's just alternative theories.
Speaker 3:Responding to alternative theories, and what Habermas has done, he has really set forward the most common and effective way for presenting Jesus's resurrection for believers and non-believers. It's called the minimal facts approach. It's a common ground approach and it uses data that's highly evidenced and that's widely accepted by scholars of all sorts of different backgrounds. And so there's some really key data, like Jesus's death. Virtually all scholars agree to that.
Speaker 3:There's multiple historical reasons why they believe it, and the first criterion, by the way, is the most important that there's a number of good reasons for each of these facts. But it's Jesus's death that the disciples had experiences of the risen Jesus, that it was proclaimed early that they were transformed and willing to suffer and die for those beliefs. The conversion of the church persecutor Paul, who became a Christian Again. Virtually nobody denies that. And then there's the conversion of Jesus' own brother James, who was a skeptic during Jesus' lifetime. So those are some widely agreed upon facts. And they're widely agreed upon because of the first criterion they're highly evidenced. So there's a number of good reasons for them. We talk about some of them actually in chapter 13 of the book.
Speaker 2:I have it written down and I'm going to ask you this question to keep us focused, because I told you there were so many things inside of your book, trustworthy, that I hadn't thought about or hadn't read, or you just bring a lot of really interesting topics to the table, so I'm going to go down with two. I'm going to stay with two just right now.
Speaker 2:You said the crucifixion would have been embarrassing, so that evidence is that is one of your arguments about the trustworthiness of the New Testament. I really haven't heard. I mean, I'm sure I've heard it put in other ways, but it would have been embarrassing.
Speaker 3:We just take it for granted because crosses are everywhere.
Speaker 3:We see them everywhere. But back then it was horrific. It was a slave's punishment. Horrific, it was a slave's punishment for Romans. There's a famous Roman lawyer who he was able to get a case thrown out because the other lawyer used the word crucifixion. That was enough to get the case just gone. And they would say the word crucifixion should be so beyond the ears of a Roman citizen, it shouldn't even be in their thoughts. So it was something just. You don't even we don't even need to think about it. We're Roman, but we're so much beyond that. And then for the Jews too, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1, that it's foolishness to the Gentiles and a stumbling block to the Jews, because in Deuteronomy 21, 22, and 23, that's chapter 21, verse 22 and 23, someone who's hung on a tree is cursed by God. So you're telling us, the Messiah is cursed, Cursed by his father.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so now I'm supposed to understand that's who you want me to believe. So it's very embarrassing and you know, we hear people talk about totalitarianism and things like that and when you have tyrants and people like that, they get rid of all the embarrassing details. We see embarrassing details throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament. Yeah, that's a big one, because you're going to tell us the king of the universe, power was what dominated power. What was is what was cool back then.
Speaker 3:You know to use that Isn't it even that today, though it's becoming, it's reverting back to that reverting back. We're regressing back to that.
Speaker 2:We it's. It's reverting back to that, reverting back, we're regressing back to that, we it's.
Speaker 3:It's seemingly so, uh for sure, power over and not. But yes, those embarrassing elements, those are indicators, those are criteria that historians use, that add weight to something we do it today intuitively, like. If you're like oh yeah, you wouldn't have volunteered that unless there's some truth to it, there's some good truth to that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so that's one of your arguments and that's there's some truth to it, there's some good truth to that. So, yeah, so that's one of your arguments and that's that's in chapter 13,. Just so my heart lifters can find that In chapter five. This is like. Another thing that I just want to read it and highlight and understand is that there are certain you write creeds and criteria, evidential category creeds. Okay, For those of us who perhaps haven't been in a church that uses creeds, what does that mean? What are you sharing with?
Speaker 3:us. Yes, how are those creeds?
Speaker 2:What is that?
Speaker 3:So creeds? There's a lot of different types of creeds so it's important to distinguish. We're not talking about, like the Nicene Creed, which happened in 325 AD, so that's centuries after Jesus, right? We're not talking about creeds that our church may have or confession or ministering confession or something like that.
Speaker 3:The creeds that we're talking about are actually in the New Testament written down. They're oral traditions that were preserved in writing. So they're really unique in that aspect, because we know that these were the oral traditions that they were using out of the gate as soon as the resurrection happened. So, but then you go well, all right, well, how do you?
Speaker 2:okay, that's nice to say that but how in the world do you know?
Speaker 3:that there's an oral tradition written down. They don't have quotation marks, they don't have footnotes, they don't have those sorts of things back then. So how do you know? Well, if you can read Greek, that helps, which I cannot, yes, but what's interesting is there's a lot of Bibles today that are starting to bracket out these creeds. So you, can identify them in your Bibles.
Speaker 2:Oh, can you give us one right away? I'm so curious and interested. Where's my pen?
Speaker 3:Yes, Uh, the Holman Coleman uh, holman, I think that's the name of the HCSB is one of them. I'm actually checked to see if mine does, cause I can't even remember. I don't think mine does. I've got a NASB but I don't think it does.
Speaker 2:But the HCSB does.
Speaker 3:There's a number that do, and I'll tell you here's the biggest creed. Uh, the most studied creed is that in first corinthians 15, and it's a. It's a really good test case because it highlights why scholars know that this is a creed. Paul specifically says um, I deliver to you that which I received. In a words, the greek words he uses there delivered and received are the technical words that rabbis would use for passing off formal tradition. So if we're going to work on something, we're going to specifically work on this, and I'm going to give it to you and make sure you have it and you can communicate it.
Speaker 3:We might think of like a catechesis today or something like that, but again, keeping in mind, it's an oral culture back then, so they need to have an ability to memorize these things. So there's going to be some cadence to it and all that kind of things that go with it. So Paul's telling us in 1 Corinthians 15, right at the beginning of it too, it's right at the start of the chapter he says I've delivered to you that which I've received. And he also says what he's about to remind them, because he's going to remind them. It's the gospel, it has the power to save and it's of first importance.
Speaker 3:So that should tell us all like, perk our ears up to pay attention. What is he about to tell us?
Speaker 2:What is he about to tell us? Yes, and if you?
Speaker 3:remember those minimal facts I just mentioned. That's essentially what he tells us. The core of Christianity is the most highly evidential components of it. So he says that Jesus died, died for our sins, according to the scriptures, that he was buried, uh, and that he raised three days later, according to the scripture, and that he appeared to peter, then to the 12th, then to I'm going to get this out of order, but uh, then to the 12th, then to um the 500, then to james and then, last of all, as to one entirely born.
Speaker 3:He appeared to me as well. So paul gives us this creed, it starts off and that and that and that. So you see this repetition going on. So there's a number of different reasons, but the most clear is that Paul says I delivered to you that which I received, and then he goes on to give it again. So he's reminding them of the very thing he gave them, right. And so that's crucial, because he says the resurrection is of first importance and that's why we want to make sure we have the resurrection, because that's our home base.
Speaker 2:It is our base, isn't it? It is what differentiates it Absolutely Wow.
Speaker 3:And while he even goes on in 1 Corinthians, 15, 13 to 19,. If the resurrection didn't happen, a lot of things follow. So yeah. And then even later in the chapter, he's like if the resurrection didn't happen, a lot of things follow. So, uh, yeah. And then even later in the chapter, um, he's like, if that aren't raised, well, let's just go eat and drink, cause we're dying tomorrow or you know, or maybe the next day, so just go and everything's foolishness.
Speaker 2:Everything under the sun is just uh uh worthless and a vapor right, yeah exactly. I would never have thought of that as a creed.
Speaker 3:you know, yes, so and there's there's scholars can debate it because some areas are a little more fuzzy than others. That's just a very clear one. But a lot of the big, big, important Bible Bible verses that we may know, uh, first Corinthians 15 should be one of them. Hopefully it's one of them. Now it is now Philippians 2, 5 to 11, where Paul says have this attitude in yourselves, which is also in Christ Jesus. And then he goes on to give either a Christian hymn or a Christian creed. And then Romans 10, 9,. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So there's a number of good short books on that, but hopefully that chapter in there is short enough to give you just an idea of what it is, and then,
Speaker 3:there's some footnotes and references if you're interested in going further.
Speaker 2:It's just so well done. I'm so sorry, thank you, I just have to say it. It's so well done and it's going to be something. I have a highlighter in my hand.
Speaker 3:Let me know one more thing about it, because it's probably the most important thing, Because, highlighter in my hand. Let me know one more thing about it, because it's probably the most important thing, Because I didn't even say the most Scholars date that information. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, around 55 AD. But that creed, remember? He says an oral tradition preserved yes, and Paul says I delivered to you that which I received. So where did Paul receive it? If Paul had received it formally, where did he do it? Right? Well, virtually all scholars skeptic, atheist, Christian, Jewish, doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:They dated to the early 30s AD, so immediately after Jesus' crucifixion. They go. Well, how did they date there? In Galatians 1, Paul says three years after his conversion he went to Jerusalem and met with Peter and James the same two individuals that are named in 1 Corinthians 15, by the way. And so he says he met with them. It's in the context of the gospel in Galatians 1. And then he says in chapter 2, 14 years later he went back again. And so we see this creed. It's early, it's connected to eyewitnesses and we have evidence too that all those three individuals there were willing to suffer and die for their faith as well.
Speaker 2:Wow, I'm, I'm smiling so big. I'm just so freaking proud of you Like.
Speaker 1:I'm just so proud of a mama's heart, grandma's heart.
Speaker 2:I don't know the heart, my heart is just beaming with. I taught in a school where we didn't have books and we had to internalize what we were going to teach, because when you internalize something, it comes from your soul, it comes from your cells, and that's what I see in you, like for a young man who hockey got him to a place where he could ask all of his deep questions and his curiosity could really be fashioned. Well, I, I'm just so honored and so proud because it's just gushing out of you in an authentic way and that's just refreshing. An authentic way and that's just refreshing.
Speaker 3:But anyway, getting back to you, I just let me. Let me share a quick story. We don't. You may know a little, you may know this without realizing it, but I got a black belt in jujitsu. So I don't want to do things that don't have practical application right, Like sometimes academia or jujitsu, or whatever guys try they want to study the stuff that is on the top shelf, which is fine to do occasionally, but everyday stuff, that's not everyday stuff.
Speaker 2:It's not. And so thank you for that segue, because what I wanted to ask you right from the get-go was you coined this? I'm not sure if you coined it, but you just talk about the everyday believer. That's what you say, it over and over again like the everyday believer. The everyday believer. I just wanted to know how you would describe an everyday believer in today's modern culture, because we have a lot of nuns, n-o-n-e-s, we have a lot of people not nun. I wanted to be a nun but I don't want to be an N-O-N-E-S. But you know, deconstructing, reconstructing all of this stuff and I just think your book is timely Wow, good for Ivy Press. I love them that they would give us a tool that we can put in our hand to um, be able to apologetic, in a sense right, be able to defend, be able to just have good conversation without being haughty, without being um I'm better than you or I just have such a heart for people to just love Jesus.
Speaker 2:You know just know who he really is not who the church says he is. So, you say this everyday, believer, I just want to know what you feel like that is and why you put it in the book. Why was that important to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it reflects a lot of different people, so it would be a case by case aspect on that. Yeah, now, that being said, one of the things is apologetics. People hear it and they think one thing some people on here probably. They keep using that word. What are they sorry for? Yeah, I saw him play hockey. He is sorry. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:Apologetics, for it just means to give a reason back. So I've got a book on my shelf called In Defense of History. It's an apologetic for history doing it. Why does it matter? Socrates famously gave an apology before the court in defense of himself, so it's an everyday word. Well, it's not an everyday word for us. It was an everyday word and so it's just giving some sort of reason. But in 1 Peter 3.15, we are called to always, always, be prepared to give a reason for the hope that we have within us. I love that. Yes, and that's what we're called to do. Does that mean we're supposed to answer every objection? No, that's not what giving a word back is. We're supposed to give a response for what? The reason for the hope that we have. So we have to know our hope. We have to know that means knowing the gospel Love that. Know that and that's not, does that? So this is where that comment came earlier, where I alluded to the fact I had to go get a master's degree and a PhD to get discipled.
Speaker 2:That's kind of what I was getting at. Oh timeout. Yes, thank you. Thank you, ben. So we're both suffering with ADD here. God bless everyone listening. So that goes along with my question. What do you think an everyday believer is? Because you have said it so many times that you were not discipled. Okay, what does that mean? Walk alongside of what it means to be an everyday believer. And then, what does it mean to be discipled? Okay, and that might lead into the ministry that you have.
Speaker 3:So let me these will. All these should all tie in together. Okay, lord will. I don't see in scripture where you have to get a phd or a master's degree to be discipled. So okay, that's not needed. It's clear that's not needed. But I that's what I had to go do. So why did I have to go do that? What were some of the things that were missing? Well, some of it is the superficiality of some churches. Some of that is the feelings-based aspect of a lot of churches. That may be fond of the superficiality. Some of it may be the just distraction of a lot of churches. Some of it may be that we don't want to. Mike McGarry is someone who I spoke to recently. He's a youth. He goes by Youth Pastor Theologian, and they are giving teenagers not milk but like water.
Speaker 2:So let alone solid food.
Speaker 3:Not just teenagers, children, children.
Speaker 2:But they can handle the tough stuff they cause they already have the tough stuff, absolutely, they already know they can they have three?
Speaker 3:Yes, they have the questions, whether or not they want to talk to them about them, so you might as well to them about them, so you might as well be proactive about it. And so you know I had those questions. But unfortunately, a lot of the people around me, even in church, some church leaders, new believers they're going to have questions and they should have questions tying this into everyday believers and tying it into deconstruction. A lot of people they say they deconstruct, when really they just have questions that went unanswered.
Speaker 3:Barna studies show that 80% of believers have unresolved questions 80%.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh Ben this is it? This is so good.
Speaker 3:So, but of those 80%, 50%, have them for prolonged periods of time. Yes, what happens if you just sit on those questions for a long time? Well, I can tell you.
Speaker 2:That's not what today's about, but I can absolutely tell you.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I was one of those people too. I had prolonged periods, I didn't, and then. So I present those questions. So that's the setup Now, when I ask a question like is knowing who wrote 1 Corinthians an apologetic question or a discipleship question?
Speaker 3:Oh so good? Yes, you have to say yes, because if you're giving a reason for the hope that you have, then yes, it's an apologetic question, but you have to know the hope that you have and that's a discipleship question, and so I can't give a reason for the hope that I have if I don't know it. And if I don't have it, then I'm not a disciple, because that's part of it. I got to understand. And who's going to have questions about the hope that they have within them? Dis, the hope that they have within them? Disciples are going to have those questions because they're trying to understand what's going on. Wait, it's not my works that get me to heaven. Okay, explain this a little more. What do you mean? Jesus? So he died and rose again, like what's going on there? So those are good questions. And so part of that process is and this takes relationship, this takes time, this takes working with people to build them.
Speaker 3:It needs a church too that is going through scripture and using that as their standard, not using scripture as a way to give their own self-help advice. Cause I mean I'm from I'm from Florida again 4 million people in Broward County, buddy. I got 4 million other people I can talk to for advice. I mean I don't trust myself. Why am I going to trust other people here? But again, god knows God's far greater than any of us. Let me listen to what he's got to say. So I'm just asking those questions. So part of the goal with trustworthy is that. Okay, now I know Paul wrote half the New Testament.
Speaker 3:So now, when I'm reading it, I'm understanding it at greater depth. When I see 1 Corinthians 15, now I'm understanding it at greater depth. So now I've begun to understand, so now I can be more equipped to stand when I'm out in my life and in my everyday life. I want to take credit for that, but that's from a 1990s ska Christian song, the Supertones, I think is the name of the band the Supertones. They say how are you going to stand if you don't understand?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, wow Go Supertones. I'm going to look that up. I know, richie.
Speaker 3:Underhill of Corporate Chaplains of America. Give him the credit for that. Yeah, fantastic, because we were talking, I was sharing what we were doing.
Speaker 1:He goes oh, you'd love this song, uh, but.
Speaker 2:But that's the point, because how are you going to stand, you know if, if you don't have a foundation, you're just going to go with the flow, tossed and turned by every wind of doctrine and that was me growing up right, not growing, that was like, especially my team but that goes to the point that begs like what I'm why I love that you're here, because one of my passions is that I did not think for myself. I didn't get to have that privilege. Now, that might be my fault, that might be, but in didn't ask questions. I think about my children, my oldest for sure, in the Christian school. She went to the last three years. You just didn't ask questions and she is a questioner and it deeply affected her to be shut down again and again and again and again.
Speaker 3:It's not just that we're going to have questions, but if we're trying to help other people who are lost, they're going to have questions. So I need to do it, I don't need it. If I don't need to do it for me, that's great. I need to do it for somebody else.
Speaker 2:Exactly, if I'm going to be an everyday believer like you say, I put that into words. That's how I say I'm a heart lifter. I go out into the world and I shine my light. If I don't have any light inside, I can't shine my light If I don't know that hope, like you're saying, to me it equivalates. It's the same. I don't even know if that's a word, but it's like. I don't know if it's word equivalent, but it came out.
Speaker 3:You're not academic. We can make up words.
Speaker 2:I'll just make it up. I love to make up words. Actually, it goes back to being discipled by someone who's trustworthy right.
Speaker 3:It's that word trustworthy. And how do we know who's trustworthy? And Jesus tells them you look at their fruits. You look at their fruits. And we can't just say, oh yeah, that person. They say they got this, that, buddy. Anybody can say anything.
Speaker 2:And you talk about that like right in the beginning, ben, you just go right into it and you just talk about people that do on television or whatever you know, and that you were frustrated and you wanted to like you know and they that you were frustrated and you wanted to like you know you could, you identified that something wasn't authentic. Is that fair?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, cause you see it, but then scripture warns about it constantly. So, and that's what I always thought was interesting, cause I would see people getting arrested, like you said on. I mean, how it is today, people getting arrested, uh, pastors, for doing stuff they ought not to do, and then you'd see TV making fun of them and I'm like, oh, they're not wrong.
Speaker 2:They're not wrong. They call them a hypocrite. But you say tell.
Speaker 3:But then they go and get rid of all of Christianity, which that's now. That's wrong, because Christianity is the ground you're standing on to say that they're wrong, and so when you get rid of that, then you lose your own ground, and so then I was like okay, so they're both wrong but, I don't. I don't know where right is, so that was part of the challenge.
Speaker 2:So that was your challenge to pursue what is right and that's what I love and respect about you. Already just meeting you, that it, it's that hunger. You know it's. When it's the Beatitudes, it's the sermon on the mat which you loved as a child. You know it's hunger and thirst. Hunger and thirst that's what I feel, like you're in this book as an invitation, you know.
Speaker 3:Well, that's what? Well, that's part of the goal, just because we want people to hunger and thirst for God's word, because that's the again, that that's what's going to help, and it's not just reading it once or twice. You don't just eat an apple once or take a vitamin once. You have to do it every day. You do, you got to stay fully equipped every day.
Speaker 3:You're inspiring me to do that honestly Prone to wander and they are prone to drift, and we want to make sure that we bring them back in alignment, because when we start doing that, this is such a silly thing. But would you ever expect to plant apple seeds and get oranges? No, it's just that it sounds like it's like an insulting question, because it's so. But Paul tells us in Galatians 6, do not be deceived for what you reap you sow. And we deceive ourselves all the time, thinking we could plant apple seeds and get oranges. But we're not talking about real fruits, we're talking about life fruits so what do we need to plant here?
Speaker 2:ben right exactly look at time and you're. You're really inciting me and hopefully everyone listening because of all the digital distraction that we I honestly, I'm old enough to say I didn't have this in my 30s and 40s and I wrote probably 30 Bible studies in that time while I was homeschooling I was in the word hungering, thirsting, searching with all the big books around me no, google, no, nothing, and what I wouldn't give for that again. But it's really difficult. But you are inciting us. This book is inspiring us to open the New Testament, which is where I'm going to start. Use your book as my study guide next to it and know my hope.
Speaker 2:This is what I'm taking away.
Speaker 3:If that helps, let me. Part of my story, too, is that I tried reading the Bible a number of times and I stopped. I had to stop because I was like I don't know what's going on in the biggest or I didn't understand.
Speaker 3:I didn't. I didn't understand, I didn't have somebody helping me. I didn't know what a Bible study was. I didn't know what a commentary was. I didn't know you could do this New Testament and it would help you, right, because no one tells you these things. And so well, I got to Liberty and I was like everyone's saying it's important to read your Bible. I'm like, well, I'd like to, but how do you do it? And one guy it's not a football game. He's like just start reading three chapters a day. If you do that, you'll read the New Testament four times in a year. And I was like I can do that.
Speaker 3:And then you think about how different you'll be in a year after eating every day for a year. And then you're starting to understand the New Testament and then you can start to understand the Old Testament as well. But also, he added at the football game yeah, he added, if you do Proverbs one chapter a day, that's 12 times in a year. That's my husband. I was like, oh, I'm going to do that too, that's my husband. He's a proverb man. You can do those things. They're not beyond anybody. Those aren't PhD things. I love that.
Speaker 2:So hear that challenge Heartlifters, I love much. We on our website.
Speaker 3:We have a free resource. What is your website? Go ahead and tell me right now. Coreapologeticscom. Thank you. This is if three chapters a day is too much. Ron Davis has made a. It's called a core journal, and you go through scripture and then you write through a little bit with it each day. We're out of physical copies.
Speaker 2:No, you can't drop that and say you're out of physical copies, we're out of physical copies we take.
Speaker 3:you can't drop that and say you're out of physical copies. We're out of physical copies. We take donations. For those who want to help us restock, we take donations.
Speaker 2:I got you.
Speaker 3:Okay, but we have the digital copy is free online, okay. We've had people with master's degree say it's helpful. We've had high school students say it's helpful, but it's just because the whole point is just getting back into engaging scripture every day and getting in that process. So that's another way. If you're a journaler, that's something that we love.
Speaker 2:I love that coreapologeticscom. I obviously will put that in all the show notes and all the jazz for sure. I want to ask you a really fun question before we go. And then I want to know about the ministry that you refer to. So on page 77, it caught my eye you have. Why would Philip know? Why would Philip know what?
Speaker 2:Well, in John, six readers you write readers are presented with an account of Jesus's feeding of the 5,000. How many times have I heard that? But you know what? I was teaching a Bible study at a very solid church, and I'm going on and on and finally this girl raises her hand. She was sitting right in the front, right by me, hungry is a little thing, and she goes. I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no idea who that is. I was talking about David, I have no idea. And I stopped and that changed my life, like absolutely changed my trajectory. I was like, forgive me, forgive us for assuming that you know anything about the Bible. Why did we not ask that first and foremost? I think that's what you're saying.
Speaker 3:It's something to where the church is there for believers. So we're expecting believers to understand certain things, because we come together to get equipped and built up to go into the world and be lights into the world and then meet together to support one another as well. Right, there's someone new coming in. We want to find out where they're at and then meet them where they're at and then help build them up and equip them according to the needs and skills and talents that each of us have. But her not knowing, I still have that feeling. I still feel the feeling that I had before coming to Liberty, where I was like I just don't, I wish I knew some things.
Speaker 2:I don't know a lot of things, and so I understand that, and it's such a big college and university, and so I just I never heard of it until the hockey team. It's fantastic. I'm sorry, I just love how God works. It is so cool, it's so good. Okay, so, john six, how many times have we heard you know Jesus feeding the 5,000? Well, I just really want to know why. Why would Philip know where to go get bread? I?
Speaker 3:have to answer. This is in the chapter that we talk about undesigned coincidences.
Speaker 2:Okay, heartlifter. Oh my goodness, I have to stop here and take a pause because this has gone long and I don't want to hinder you from listening. So I'm going to put out part two, where Dr Ben talks about undesigned coincidences, on Friday. So stay tuned, okay, but in the meantime I want to bring to the table something very important that Ben tells us. He says 80% of believers have unanswered questions and they've had them for decades, years. And so I just want to know do you have any unanswered questions about the faith journey? And I'll bring them to Dr Ben and I'll help answer them myself.
Speaker 2:So be sure, if you haven't already, subscribe to Heart Lift Central over on Substack. That's where I'm going to be, that's where I'll be answering these questions and I'll invite Ben in on this as well. You know he says how are you going to stand if you don't understand? Or the supertone said we have to know our hope. That's what apologetics is, that's what Ben's trying to help us know. Know our hope, capital H. So meet me over on Heart Lift Central, substack. If you don't know how, contact me, email me, janelle, at JanelleRairdoncom, or go to HeartLiftCentralcom. The link is on the landing page, you can't miss it. So until then I'll meet you there and then part two will come out to you on Friday. Let me know what you think. I want to know your heart HeartLifter, until then.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening today. Please meet Janelle over at HeartLift Central on Substack at HeartLift Central, where we can keep this remarkable conversation going. Please share today's episode with a friend and invite them to become stronger every day. Heartlifter, always remember this you have value, worth and dignity.
