Today's Heartlift with Janell
Sometimes the story we tell ourselves is not really true. Sometimes the story others tell about us is not really true. On "Today's Heartlift with Janell," Author, Trauma-informed, board-certified marriage and family specialist, and Professional Heartlifter, Janell Rardon, opens conversations about how emotional health and mental fitness effects absolutely every area of our lives. When we possess and practice healthy, strong, resilient emotional health practices, life is so much better. Read Janell's newest book, "Stronger Every Day: 9 Tools for an Emotionally Healthy You."
Today's Heartlift with Janell
315. Penny Preaches: God's Gifts and Gender Roles with Rob and Amy Dixon
Today is National Picture Book Day, so we celebrate by bringing the voices of Rob and Amy Dixon to the table. In this episode, I speak with Amy and Rob Dixon about their new picture book, Penny Preaches, which helps normalize girls in church leadership roles. We:
• Explore the theological frameworks of complementarianism versus egalitarianism in church settings.
• Understand how women's leadership gifts remain untapped – "the church has been trying to fulfill the Great Commission with half the team on the bench."
• Discuss the importance of representation and modeling in helping children envision possibilities: "It's hard to be what you can't see."
• Look at how to raise children with an egalitarian mindset through transparency and collaboration.
• Respond to resistance with "convictions held with humility" rather than combativeness.
• Unleash the powerful message that "God gives good gifts to everyone" regardless of gender.
Order this powerful children's book: Penny Preaches
Learn more abut Rob's books: Dr. Rob Dixon
Learn more about Amy's other children's books: Amy Dixon Books
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- Visit and subscribe to Heartlift Central on Substack. This is our new online coaching center and meeting place for Heartlifters worldwide.
- Download the "Overcoming Hurtful Words" Study Guide PDF: BECOMING EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY
- Meet me on Instagram: @janellrardon
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- Learn more about my books and work: Janell Rardon
- Make a tax-deductible donation through Heartlift International
As I've listened to the stories of thousands of women of all ages in all kinds of stages through the years, I've kept their stories locked in the vault of my heart. I feel as if they've been walking around with me all through these years. They've bothered me, they've prodded me and sometimes kept me up at night. Ultimately, they've increased my passion to reframe and reimagine the powerful positions of mother and matriarch within the family system. I'm a problem solver, so I set out to find a way to perhaps change the trajectory of this silent and sad scenario about a dynamic yet untapped source of potential and purpose sitting in our homes and churches. It is time to come to the table, heartlifters, and unleash the power of maternal presence into the world. Welcome to Mothering for the Ages, our 2025 theme. Here on today's Heartlift. I'm Janelle. I am your guide here on this heartlifting journey. I invite you to grab a pen, a journal and a cup of something really delicious. May today's conversation give you clarity, courage and a revived sense of camaraderie. You see, you're not on this journey alone. We are unified as heartlifters and committed to bringing change into the world one heart at a time. Hello, heartlifters, and happy April. Today, we are going to have some fun with Amy and Rob Dixon, who have written this incredibly beautiful, profound picture book called Penny Preaches. Today is National Picture Book Day, so why not celebrate this amazing picture book? Picture books, I think. When I go into a big bookstore, I like to go to the children's book section first, because picture books speak so loudly to me. I would love to be a children's book author. We'll see if God has that in the plans, but for today we're going to celebrate this amazing picture book. A reviewer wrote this about Penny Preaches and I think it says it all. It hasn't been that long since men and women were stuck in traditional career roles. I was one of the first male operators hired by Pacific Telephone in 1972, writes Harold. My career path up the ladder was easier than for women, who mostly filled the lower paying entry level jobs, while men climbed the ladder to do higher paying craft jobs. For me, penny Preaches goes beyond church roles and applies to leadership roles in any capacity. Yes, so we're going to dive into the subject of leadership roles for women, particularly because that's what we're all about and since we're really focusing on mothering, motherhood and matriarchy and grandmothering, and so Penny Preaches helps me go inside of myself and go how can I be a role model for my granddaughters, grandsons as well? But we're specifically talking about leadership roles for women today. So, as we listen, I invite you and I invite myself to think how can I tell stories in my life to everyone in my sphere of influence that will help them think big? So go ahead and write that question down how can I tell stories that help others think big? What does that mean? Let's find out today.
Speaker 1:Hello, and welcome to today's Heart Lift with Janelle. And today, oh my goodness, this is a big drum roll, a very big drum roll moment, because I have with me Amy and Rob Dixon and they have written this children's book Penny Preaches. It does say that Penny preaches. It does. God gives good gifts to everyone. And you write here God's gifts are not allocated by gender. Really, really.
Speaker 2:Imagine that.
Speaker 1:I don't know, rob Dixon, I need you to talk about this, and Amy as well, but I did read. I was just going to. Well, amy, you actually write this. Let me read it to you. We want to normalize. So I circled that word normalize because I think that's a powerful, powerful word Girls being able to imagine themselves in leadership roles in the church. You have four kids, a boy and three girls. Leadership roles in the church you have four kids, a boy and three girls. Because of, rob, your work in the egalitarian field. We've always been really intentional about wanting our kids to know that girls and boys are both equally loved and valued by God. That's about as far as I got before I made 85 notes. So, egalitarian. If you would just give us a theological framework here for what that means and you've been in this work egalitarian work I don't, I'm just gonna pretend I don't know what that means okay, yeah, I'll start um.
Speaker 2:So there's two primary. First of all, it's great to be with you, so thank you, I didn't even welcome you.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's okay. No, it's great to be with you. So, thank you, I didn't even welcome you.
Speaker 2:I don't think I jumped right in. No, that's fine, fine. Fine, thanks for having us and it's good to be with you. So there's two primary schools of thought, theological thought around the role of women and men in ministry, in terms of how we think about the Bible. One is called complementarian and one is called egalitarian. Both sides agree that humans men, women have worth because they're created in God's image, like that's common. The thing where they differ is complementarians believe that there are roles set up for men and for women and by and large, men are called to what we might call more leadership kinds of roles, so preaching, executive leadership in the church, the pastoral office, things like that Whereas egalitarians believe that it's about gifting and calling and not about gender. So in other words, the church doors should be wide open for men and women alike to use their gifts however God's calling them. So that's my nutshell, kind of distinction between the two.
Speaker 1:That's good. That's super good because it's them. So that's my nutshell kind of distinction between the two. That's super good because it's I mean, it's out there. I was just reading in a book proposal that I'm working on Last year, june 16th, I just read I have to change it because I have to update it, but it was the day that the Southern Baptist said women can't preach. And I, you know, unless you write things down, you tend to forget. And so I was looking at this book proposal, which is on matriarchs and the matriarchal spirit, and I went wow, they did do that. How crazy that I pulled that back out today. And then I'm talking to the both of you. So have you always been egalitarian, or was this a process or was this a journey? I'm curious from either of you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, go ahead, amy, go ahead, well, I was going to say you know, I grew up in the Catholic church, so I did 12 years of Catholic school and in the Catholic church you really or at least when I was in the Catholic church you really don't see women doing anything Like, even at at the point you know where I was in the church I you didn't even see altar girls. I think they do have altar girls now, do they? Yeah, I believe so. Wow, I know the Methodist acolytes, okay, yeah, so, um, yeah. So I definitely did not grow up like seeing women in leadership roles, so yeah, but I think I grew up in a family, even though we were going to the Catholic church, where it was very egalitarian in in the way kind of we operated. So when I first started studying the Bible for myself, it was surprising to me that some people believed that women couldn't do everything a man could do, and so that was something that I kind of had to explore on my own. Looking at the word, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my journey yeah, my journey is pretty a bit of a roller coaster, although I'd say the upper trajectory has been that I've been in an egalitarian space for a long, long time. So I grew up in a church where women preached. I wouldn't say they were like perfect about that and it was maybe occasional, but still there was a category in my mind that women could be reverence, women could be pastors, women could be preachers, right. And then I got involved with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, which is a college ministry organization which I'm still working for today, and they've always been InterVarsity has always been an egalitarian kind of space.
Speaker 2:And so I think to the quote you read you know what's normal, right? What was normal for me was co-leading Bible studies alongside women and sitting in fellowship meetings where women were preaching and being mentored by a woman and mentoring women. And so now fast forward 30 plus years, a long time, and that's just part of the culture, if you will maybe, of how we do our ministry work. So I think a lot does depend actually on what you've experienced and what's quote unquote normal for you, which is why sometimes it's really hard to change a theological position, because if you've grown up in one, it's hard to rethink and reimagine and reconsider and take on a different kind of way of thinking and acting.
Speaker 1:Right, but this is what you write and I love this, Rob. I am fortunate to have lots of motivation sources. You were asked what inspired you to write this book. I think about our girls and what kind of church I want them to inherit. I think about this from a justice angle. I really love this. It's unjust. It's unjust when the church doesn't permit women to use their gifts. I think about this from a missiological angle. For two centuries, the church has been trying to fulfill the Great Commission with half the team on the bench.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Come on, that is so well said. You are going to be.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is not going to be like lovingly received by every angle, but to only have half the team on the bench, oh, yeah. That just makes my heart hurt, Like I think it makes God's heart hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do too, right, I mean, the mission we've been given is to share the gospel with the whole world, and that is a huge mission.
Speaker 2:I mean the church will never get there, and so if we're even going to come close, we need all hands on deck right and everybody using their gifts and everybody putting everything they've got into that. And so it's yeah, it's a missiological challenge as to why the church has relegated half the team to not use their gifts in certain areas or not be allowed to do certain things. It's hard, yeah, it's hard. It's unjust.
Speaker 1:It's unjust. I mean, that's a strong word, so it caught my attention for sure. I interviewed I had the privilege of interviewing Dr Nije Gokta you know Women. Tell their Stories, which he's an Ivy Press author as well, and that was a life-changing interview as well.
Speaker 2:It was just like yes, yes, we love Nije, yep.
Speaker 1:I know, I just guess we will get to Penny, I promise it's just. I guess that core issue is why are we still here? I know that's a deep question and you know. So I just think what century are we in and why do you think we're still in this gridlock, in a sense?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know it's a deep question, but I just thought I'd ask.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:Amy. Anything you want to add, amy, go ahead. This is really Rob's area of expertise and his passion, and one of the things I love about Rob's research is that he has had the opportunity to interview and speak with and be in conversation with so many women who have been trying to live out what they're calling in the church, so I'm going to let him speak on this, because he has the knowledge and the reference points to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well thanks, sam. I mean, I think old habits die hard, right, so people have talked about, you know, it's like turning a super tanker on the ocean. It takes a long, long time to make that turn and I think sometimes the church can be like that right, where it's not going to turn on a dime. It's not a speedboat. It's going to take this long bending arc right and I think I mean from where I'm sitting it does feel like the boat is turning, but it's just, you know, it's not turning with the speed and the ease that I would want it to right. I was at an event not long ago a couple years ago, oh, a year ago and Ruth Haley Barton, who's a friend, mentor.
Speaker 1:Gotta love Ruth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wrote the foreword to my book. She's amazing. Yeah, she gets up and she says something like I think 25 years will have solved this as a church. And I'm thinking that's first of all. I'm thinking I'll be 75 years old, but I'm in, let's do it. But then, second of all, I just said I don't know if I have the faith.
Speaker 1:I will be very old. Go ahead Sorry.
Speaker 2:Yes. The other response I had was to say I'm not sure I have the faith that we will really solve this quote unquote in another 25 years, and the reason is because old habits die hard. Theology is hard to change. Practice is hard to change, right? So even let me just say, like I have a lot of churches and organizations that I work with that are proudly and profoundly egalitarian, but their practice can lag behind their theology, right, and so one of the ways I think about what I do is to try to bridge the gap between what we say we value and then what we practice. Right, and so you can have the best theology that says, yeah, we read the Bible and we believe women can be empowered and lead, and all that. But what about your culture? What about your systems? What about your policies? What about your structure? Right, just all kinds of work we need to do to better align our values with our practices. Right, and that's hard work. So I think yeah the supertaker right.
Speaker 2:Let's hope it moves quicker and change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean I think God's not in a hurry ever. His timetable is not our timetable. I just wonder if you think or have an opinion on perhaps how we as women, amy, even yourself, how you're rearing your daughter, in preparing or speaking to her about this topic, because I know there are a lot of mamas and a lot of grandmas and I think I've just become a grandmother 2.5 years. I'll have five, which is crazy, but it has made me really look at my faith journey. But I don't want to have a fear-based faith anymore. I want to be able to talk to my grandchildren with an intellectual faith and a deep hearted faith. So how can we maybe start bridging that gap? This is a better question how can we begin bridging that gap to our girls and all the girls in our lives?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think one of one of Rob and one of our kind of principles in raising them is just this um idea of transparency and vulnerability and really being able to talk to our kids about really kind of anything. It's sort of a thing that they love and they also sort of hate.
Speaker 3:So it's like in in terms of like, there's some things maybe as a kid, you don't want to talk to your parents about you know, but we're more like, okay, you want to watch that show to your parents about you know, but we're more like, okay, you want to watch that show, like, let's, we can watch it, but then you're going to talk to me about it. We're going to have a conversation about you know, what we saw in that show, or whatever. So I think that has been a huge thing. Just in even talking about gender roles and that kind of thing is like, um, even us evaluating our own processes and like how we function as a, as an egalitarian couple.
Speaker 3:Okay, what do you do when neither one of you likes cooking, like? Does it then just naturally fall to me, because that's?
Speaker 3:what everyone's used to, or is there a more equitable like way that we can? So? So things like that. You know, um, where you know, we talk to the kids. We say look like the way that we split our roles as an egalitarian married couple is by things you are good at, things you like to do, things you prefer to do. But then what if neither one of you is good at it or you prefer to, you don't prefer?
Speaker 1:to do it. Yeah, so just call DoorDash DoorDash. Yeah, I'm kidding, that's very expensive, by the way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Just like. I mean, we try to model it as much as we can, but the reality is we're not perfect at it and we both grew up in households where roles were very traditional. You know, my mom was a stay at home mom, my dad brought home the bacon. You know, this is this is the family I grew up in. Yeah, but it is like kind of talking through all of those things is really how we handle it.
Speaker 1:How old are your children, if I can ask?
Speaker 3:Yes, they are 22, 20 or almost 20, uh, 18 and 15. You guys don't look old enough to have children that age I was like 15, 12, six. It's true, I was 22 when I got married.
Speaker 1:My daughter got married at 22. Yeah, my 22.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they've already been married 10 years. I'm like, oh my gosh, you're going to hit 50. You're going to be so young. Yeah, yeah so particularly at their ages, then you probably really are inviting them. I love that you're inviting them to watch. You want to watch that? Sure, you know you're not.
Speaker 2:you're involving them and not thinking for them? Is that fair? Is that fair to say we try, yeah, yeah, you try. That's all you can do?
Speaker 1:It's a good goal, right? So then why now did you both, just when you're sitting at the kitchen table and you go, we need to write a children's book about a girl who preaches, I mean.
Speaker 3:Well, so A children's book come out of like you're a little bit more scholarly based, I think.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Rob, definitely. Well, we're both writers. Yes, rob, definitely. Well, we're both writers. So Rob is an academic writer for the most part, and then I write children's. So I have three other picture books and a middle grade novel. And when Rob initially came to me with this idea, I initially said no. I said this is. I don't have a vision for this, you know um love dishonesty.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Why don't you try to write it and I'll be your editor and I'll like help you. But, um, initially I was like this really feels like your passion and like your thing. So that's kind of how it started. But in the process, you know, he would send it to me and I would make suggestions and then they wouldn't quite come out how I was thinking, and so then I, just as an example, I would rewrite sections and then he read it and he said, oh, this is so much better, like let's just, let's just do this together. And I at that point I was kind of sucked into it.
Speaker 3:And you know, obviously I really love this idea that if we can start bringing this to a younger generation, like at an earlier time of their life and just at that moment in life, you know, picture book readers are, you know, four to eight years old. Really is like the favorite genre range and it's just such a wonderful time where kids are like envisioning themselves, you know, doing anything. It's like when you still think that you're, you can go to the Olympics and yeah, to kind of bring this vision of girls being able to lead in the church into that kind of magical time when you really can think of yourself doing anything in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's totally magical. I love it because, honestly, amy, from what I've ever learned at writers conferences, because I love to write children's books and have written one proposal for one, like moons ago, it is can be very hard, much harder oh yeah you know, because you've got to be so succinct, and your word choices and your verb choices, which you, you actually do very well.
Speaker 1:If you don't mind, can I just read from the beginning a little bit? I won't give a lot, I mean stop, it's hard to see this on the. You start out this way. Number one she's adorable. The illustrations are awesome.
Speaker 2:They are.
Speaker 1:Yep, she loved Papa's chocolate chip pancakes with whipped cream and strawberries. She loved Mama's fancy shoes that click clack down the hallway there's that on a Montepia. You, you've got to have all this children's books. She loved helping her little brother clip on his polka dotted bow tie, but her favorite thing about Sundays was church. I just love how you, I mean, I just am. I love picture books. I read them for myself, I think.
Speaker 1:I get more out of a picture book than I do adult books, and now, with all these grandkids, I'm reading so many of them and choosing them so wisely, and you know. So you start out with immediate identification, right? I mean, who doesn't love a stack of pancakes, the chocolate chips, strawberries, and who can't hear mom's fancy shoes clicking down the hallway? You know, and then you bring in church. So I and I also love with the illustrator. We don't have her here, obviously, with us today, but the illustrations are very inclusive. I say it that way.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:I love how you made it that inclusive. So OK, you get this idea, Rob, you bring it to Amy yeah, and you decide. But why did you think now was the time, rob? What behooved you? What downloaded? Yeah, where were you? What moment?
Speaker 2:Well, I was between writing projects and I remember thinking to myself and I've watched Amy successfully publish picture books all these years and it's just been wonderful to watch her use her gifts and her passion and her abilities and all that and I remember thinking how hard could this be? It's kind of what you just said, right, like I write 50,000 word manuscripts, like this is easy, like I can do this. And then I get in the middle of it, after Amy gave me some guidance and we start, I start rolling with it and I think I started. I remember thinking like this is brutally difficult. This is like a whole different thing because every word, like you said, every word matters, right, um, and the visualization.
Speaker 1:Like, like, I let me just ask, I'm just gonna ask as a writer girl to my writer, new writer friends. I mean, amy, did you choose, uh, the clickety clack, click, okay, and you probably chose the polka dotted bow tie yeah, if we could.
Speaker 2:Just we just need to clarify for the record that if you like any of the little details, that's going to be amy. You have to thank amy for that right. So all that. She just made that so much better and that's. That's one of the reasons we agreed like, oh, we're just doing this as a partnership yeah, smiley people at the time. I think maybe I came up with the clip microphone.
Speaker 3:I think maybe that was me. Her loving the microphone. That was Rob.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's so me, I love that microphone Sorry, I feel like I'm so Penny from day one in the Catholic church Like just that little microphone, I love it. She loved the preacher's tiny microphone and then this is just so great. It's so great. And she loved how sometimes all the important words started with the same letter the alliteration. That's such a preacher thing. It's so cute. Oh my gosh, I'm smiling so big Love has no limits. It's so great.
Speaker 2:But back to your question about like why? Now?
Speaker 1:Sorry, I'm having a moment.
Speaker 2:No, no, you're fine. You're good with the question of like. Why now like? Back to what I was talking about, about the super tanker turning like. Maybe if we start earlier, the tanker doesn't have as far to turn later. Does that make sense? Like, if we like, let's just start earlier, younger in terms of like, getting the word out about this, this way of thinking about the scriptures and this way of reading the text, that is egalitarian in nature, and if we can start younger, then maybe we have less to change later.
Speaker 1:I think that's exactly right. I have a million thoughts going through my head, so I'm trying to stay so focused. I just want to read this at a children's library. It's so fun. You can just do so many things with it. First grade teacher coming out.
Speaker 3:Wait, you were a first grade teacher. I was. Yes, I also work at the elementary school, so that's a job that I've kept. Even with all the publishing stuff which I love, I've kept that job. I do reading and writing intervention for first and second graders and first grade teachers. I'm sorry, all I love all teachers but and I've been in all classrooms, first through kinder, through six first grade teachers are the heroes.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you why no one's ever said that before I'm going to go teach school again.
Speaker 3:They really are. It's. The transition from kinder is at least at our school. It's separate, it's its own little ecosystem. You know first grade they get pulled into the big school. They're there for longer. They haven't quite figured out how to regulate their bodies, their emotions. They're still figuring all the babies and these first grade teachers. I tell you they work harder than anyone. I, I, yes, big respect for first grade teachers.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I love it. I loved it so much. I wept days when I had to leave because I went home to be a traditional mom. You can't work and be have babies at home. That was back in my day, anyway, the church I was at. What I was wondering is hold on. Let me get my train of thought back, because now I'm feeling all happy.
Speaker 1:I was a first grade teacher. Don't have ADD, but it seems like it right now, earlier. Right, that's what your motivations are here, to perhaps start a better conversation on even what that looks like. Because, I will be honest, I'm not a feminist, you know, in the sense that I definitely respect everything that my husband brings to the table and everything I bring to the table. It isn't one's better than the other, one's under the other. We're serving together and I'm really grateful. I have two daughters, one's a twin with my son, and I'm really grateful that both of my daughters are in relationships and marriages that are very egalitarian. And it's remarkable to me, you know, because I did play that traditional role on many respects. I did work and leave the home eventually.
Speaker 1:So I guess they saw both. But I love the way their marriages work. I just love it. I love how and my son is married. I would say they're more egalitarian. For sure, she plays more a traditional role, but how do we? Long question here I'm getting to it. How do we shape this in the right way? Is there a?
Speaker 2:right way.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense, Like if we're turning the ship and we're trying to bring a more egalitarian understanding into the relationships of future couples? Penny Preaches is a start, I guess, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a start. It evokes questions, which is what I felt with it, especially as you get to the latter part of it, when she's I don't want to give it away because it's so short, but she stands on her porch, doesn't have a tiny microphone, but she preaches to the neighborhood. And then some questions start.
Speaker 2:There's some, some resistance. Yeah, a little resistance?
Speaker 1:Maybe that's my question. Thank you, rob. How do we handle, continue to still handle, the resistance to a matriarchal presence alongside the patriarchal presence?
Speaker 2:That's a good question, Amy. Do you want to start on this one?
Speaker 3:You can go, go ahead.
Speaker 2:All right. Yeah, how do we manage the resistance? Well, I think we with grace right. So I think it's a challenge for me sometimes especially. I mean, so we knew penny getting out into the world would provoke a response, um, and by and large, that response has been wonderful and you know, especially as women read the similar stuff to what you're experiencing, right, just like, well, I wish I'd had this when I was younger, and this is such a joyful thing and it's healing to look at this and all of that, and that's been wonderful. It's also provoked some negative reactions online, and so we've been processing through those things as well, and so I think, for Amy and I and for as we try to bring change in this area, you have to expect that, and it's been one thing to expect it and it's been another thing to see it like on your screen, you know and I think that's really sent us to Jesus to just process that and sit with that.
Speaker 2:And so we want to receive critical feedback with grace. But we also want to just be clear that our view of how God's intention works for the church is shaped by scripture. It's guided by we believe the Holy Spirit and what God's speaking to the church, and so we're not going to apologize for that and we're not going to back down from that. But we want to receive critique with grace and then be able to dialogue. I mean, I have a mentor that one time that said to me it's okay to have convictions, you just have to hold them with humility.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:And I thought that was such a great word, you know. And so I think, in terms of posture, yes. I think that's the that's the one is to have a conviction, to do the work, to build a conviction and then to hold it with with humility, so that you're able to dialogue with people that think differently from you. And that's good advice when we're talking about a theology like women in leadership. It's also good advice when you're dealing with a neighbor that thinks differently politically than you do.
Speaker 1:Right now, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, any other kind of area of difference is have a conviction, but hold it with humility.
Speaker 1:And not combativeness, correct? Yeah Right. So that's what Correct? Yeah Right, so that's what I hear you like. Collaboration.
Speaker 1:I was having dinner with a mom of a five-year-old and an almost three-year-old the other night, and she's just, she's very, very smart.
Speaker 1:She was saying, yes, we've been learning, teaching the boys about how to be collaborative and not combative. This is like, wow, he's five and he's three. Five-year-old was like, yes, I know, we need to be more collaborative. He totally got it, he was totally right. And then he was being combative with his brother which boys will do and I said, oh, it looks like you're being a little combative, I know, I know. So if we can all learn to be more collaborative and less combative and not have to be right. So what I see in the two of you, though, which is such the benefit of video and having you here, thank you for being here, thank you from the bottom of my heart, because I think this is such a pivotal topic and it's so important and so vital, and to shape it in a even, as you just said, from having negative things online, I mean, that's just part of the deal now, because of social media right, sadly, sadly.
Speaker 1:Sadly. So if you don't mind, I'd love to just pick your brain about how you're managing that. Like you must be very secure in who you are, so I would call that secure attachment. Right in the counseling world, the greatest part of my work is to help people find secure attachment in their life. I didn't get that people find secure attachment in their life. I didn't get that, and my husband and I they're in our family of origins, but we are. We're earning it and getting it. It's what they call it earning it, which is weird.
Speaker 1:So you must be secure in your posture and in your position in Christ, as sure as you can be right now, secure and anchored in that, but also in your marriage, to be able to do a project like this together and then be able to face all of this. You know the good and the bad and the ugly. So how are you managing and how can we learn from you? Perhaps Because any of us who put anything out into the public realm are going to deal with this. It's just the way of the beast these days. So I mean, it's not really maybe one of your motivations for Penny Preaches, but I think it's a side product.
Speaker 3:I think it's a side product. I think I mean I will say it's such a blessing to have Rob in this situation, because I think a lot of times when women try to advocate for themselves to be able to do, to preach or to teach or all of these things, it can be viewed through a lens of like power grabbing, like well, you know, you're just trying to like have more power and you're like rebelling against God and you're, you know, you're like doing all these things that you shouldn't be, and so when you try to advocate for yourself, it's, it's misinterpreted sometimes.
Speaker 3:Whereas I feel like that's why it's so amazing to have an ally and an advocate like Rob, because he has no stake, personal stake in whether women teach, preach. All of that in terms of just like his own power. I mean, in fact, it requires him to make space for women and lay down some of his power. You know all of those things. So that's where, yeah, like having Rob as a voice and all of this is really, really amazing and and helpful as a woman.
Speaker 1:Which is why I think we love Dr Nije you know, yeah, sure. That's what I said to him. I was like, thank you yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, we have an ally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which Jesus was the biggest ally ever?
Speaker 3:So come on Well and Rob I think you know I'll let him speak more on this as well is, you know, he's just so good at now Not not always. I will say like when he was younger, conviction sometimes took him. You know, it took him time to kind of develop that like humility plus conviction, like balance that he's so important. But he's so good at it now um to be able to dialogue with people, even when they come at it in a, uh, confrontational way. Um so I don't know, I would let him.
Speaker 1:Share your secrets, rob, of what you've learned. Oh no, don't want to do it. So, rob, we're asking you to help us.
Speaker 1:You know it's. It's not even I will say this before you respond it's not even so much about Penny preaching, whereas that is what we're wanting to see unleashed is the power of the maternal right to speak and speak for God, like Deborah and Lydia, and on and on and on in the scriptures. Right, I mean, jesus was always unleashing the power of the maternal in Mary Magdalene and all kinds of women in the Bible. We could go on and on. But it is about preaching, but it is just about, I think, having a voice. Like you said, we only have half the team on the bench.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have the team on the field, on the field, on the bench, thank you. Thank you for the clarification of sports. Yes.
Speaker 1:But we've asked you a lot of questions. Let me give you one. How then do we do this, have that humility that you've learned in your wise years, and wisdom, that posture of humility, and yet come to the table and be able to say and have a voice?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think there's a secret sauce here. I think a couple things come to mind. So one whenever I'm in a situation that I feel like is going to be confrontational, I pray and I ask that the Lord would fill my heart with compassion for the people I'm dialoguing with or about to dialogue with, and I feel like that helps diffuse some of the combative feelings I may feel, or I may feel defensive. And if I'm leading with compassion, then I feel like I'm on my way towards a healthier dialogue and healthier process. So praying for that would be one thing. I think another thing would be. I mean, look, the other day on social media, Amy and I got called demons.
Speaker 1:No, you did not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not an easy thing to be called that.
Speaker 1:You really, really did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and the first thing we did, the first thing I did was I emailed a crew of people that care about us and support us and pray for us, intercede for us on a regular basis, and so I think that'd be a second thing. It's like who are the people around you that can keep you grounded and keep you kind of at an even keel and keep you in a place where you're holding your conviction with humility? I think we need the village kind of at that point, especially when we're under fire or whatever or something's difficult. So you need a village around you that way. And then I just think the other thing is trying to always humanize, keep that front and center right that this person that I'm dialoguing with is also a child of God.
Speaker 2:I think in this conversation in particular around a theology of women in leadership, like I need to believe that the people sitting that have a different view have also done work in the scriptures and their work has led them to a different place, and just like my work in the scriptures have led me to this place, and so like they're a human being that that cares about the scriptures and wants to be right and wants to do God's will and keeping that in mind I think is useful. It's hard when you start to dehumanize someone, or I should say it's easier when you're dehumanizing someone to go off on them or, you know, say something you might regret. So maybe those three things praying for compassion, second, the community around you, and the third one is trying to keep remember everyone's a human and a child of God.
Speaker 1:No, that's, that's, you know, that's. I mean. It's just what Jesus did, you know. But he also told his disciples if you go into a home and there's no peace peace there, you just go out and shake, shake it off, you know? I mean cue Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2:Which maybe I appreciate the Taylor Swift reference right there, by the way as a parent of dads or a parent of daughters. One other thing I'll say, though, is I do think in light of that there are occasions where I need to withdraw, or we need to disengage right.
Speaker 3:Because it's not healthy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not healthy and I think about especially the women that I work with that get pushback, sometimes directly spoken to them, sometimes it's indirectly or implicit, and I'm always asking like, is this a safe place for you?
Speaker 2:to engage or not, and if it's not, then I think it's okay to say, look, I need to come back around to this later, or this is doesn't feel right, I need to step aside. Or I tell my the women on my team, like you can have me talk to someone and use. If it's not safe for you, I don't want you to be a part of it, so that might be a caveat, right.
Speaker 1:I think it's critical that you said that. I really do, because there are just times that you do have to withdraw because they were in a church where Penny wasn't seeing that imaged. She wasn't seeing a woman in the pulpit or women in leadership primarily the pulpit. In the book that Penny's parents it's a children's book so we don't get any backstory but they made a firm decision to look for another place to worship and I think that's a pivotal point in this book.
Speaker 1:You know, to be able to talk to your children or my grandchildren or whoever, and be able to say you know, sometimes you know one of my authors I I love so much, emily P Freeman. You know there's a time to walk out of the room. You know when. Do you know when to walk out of the room? So why did you all make sure that was in the book? Because I think it didn't have to be in there. As I was turning the page I was like I wonder where this is gonna go. You know I was curious, which is what we need to be with each other.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think we definitely, as we were figuring out where this book was going to go, we wanted to include the importance of models and representation and all these things that you know, it's important for kids when we talk about normalizing things. It's important for kids to see those models, to have those models, and so that's really what we wanted to reflect there and represent. There was the importance of modeling, yeah.
Speaker 1:And she sees it, rob.
Speaker 2:It's just hard to be what you can't see, right. So I think about oh my, gosh, that's so good. I think about Tweet that I'm writing it down, hold on a minute.
Speaker 1:It's hard to be what you can't. Oh my gosh, did you make that up? That's very good.
Speaker 2:So it's important to have so to to me when I do coaching or something with, like, let's say, an organization wants to be better about empowering women. I have a set of questions I'll ask about. What does it look like up front, from day in, day out, in terms of you know who's on the sunday platform, let's say, or who's leading the meetings, or who's on the brochures, who's on the brochures, who's on the pictures on the website? Like, are we being thoughtful about, like Amy said, about issues of representation? Because if you want to normalize, if you want a woman to walk into your congregation and go I can use my gifts here then you probably want to have women up front. You want to have women exercising leadership. It gives permission, it gives freedom for a woman to envision herself stepping into that.
Speaker 2:I think about you know our kids like I want not just our daughters, but our son to walk into a room and go. This is a place where women can exercise leadership.
Speaker 1:That's just important right Like at a base level if they're going to step into that themselves, yeah, it's really the first thing I do when I walk in anywhere in a church situation anymore, like it's that age old. Well, it's not age old, I know it is. We hear so many, even athletes in the Olympics, say no one looks like me, no one looks like me. You know, is there anyone that looks like me? The five men on the on the platform do not look anything like any of the women in the church. I find it interesting that, um, you did choose to make the new church pastor, uh, a black woman, an african-american woman. Was that intentional to be representational? Because it seems like Penny's family is white Caucasian. But, like I said, you did the illustration so well.
Speaker 3:you kind of yeah, one thing a lot of people don't know about the process of picture books is that we, for the most part, don't have direct like we're not communicating directly with the illustrator, so some of those choices are made by the illustrator or in conjunction with the editor and the illustrator. Penny's part of a multiracial family and it's not specific kind of on purpose and it's not specific kind of on purpose. That's why I love it. We wanted it to be as accessible as possible.
Speaker 3:We wanted anyone to be able to read the book and envision themselves being a woman with leadership gifts who is called to preach. I love it. It's what I love about it yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's, yeah, I mean sometimes there are things as writers that we do write into the illustrations, for example, the, the scene where she preaches to her first audience, and it's her stuffed animal, our concept, um, in writing it, um. But then there's other things in there that are fully the illustrators's um, okay, expression. Yeah, it's her contribution, it's her artistic contribution to the story and um, like the cat, for example, like love the cat, obsessed with the cat in this book. But that's the illustrator, uh, that's jennifer davison who did that. She did such a great job.
Speaker 1:So, so the main. Let's keep the main thing, the main thing, the main thing. Here you say well, you tell us, what do you want all of the millions of little readers to take away from Penny Preaches?
Speaker 2:Well, the tagline of the book is God gives good gifts to everyone, right? And I think at a base level, that's what we're hoping to communicate. You know that God is the one giving the gifts, that God's the gift giver and starts there, and then you get given gifts in God's mercy and economy. You're given a gift and it's not dependent on what you look like or what gender you are, it's just God's giving a good gift to you and then your job is to use it, and to grow it, develop it Right.
Speaker 2:So I think something around that would be what I'm hoping folks get out of this.
Speaker 1:And she practices. That's what I love, like she's not a huge lesson to me is that she's not hindered by what she sees because she's called, it's her gift and the gifts of God are irrevocable, it says. And so I love that she sets up her little stuffed animals. I mean, I love that she does that and that she just doesn't allow it until she puts her notebook away Just for a brief. You got to have the conflict, you got to have the crisis. So she puts her notebook away just for a brief.
Speaker 1:You got to have the conflict, you know you got to have the crisis, so she puts her notebook away a little bit. Yeah, also go ahead. I'm gonna let amy talk. Yeah, what do you want, since you are? You know this is what you do and you have written so many before and I'm sure I've read to many little readers, amy, what is?
Speaker 3:your hope that you know they take away. I mean definitely agree with everything Rob already said. And then on top of that, just specifically for little girls to be able to envision themselves doing anything in God's kingdom is really my hope to not limit their vision and their dreams.
Speaker 1:Amy and Rob. I'm so grateful for this conversation, so grateful.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much for having us and it's your enthusiasm is just beautiful. Us and it's your enthusiasm is just beautiful and we're it's. It's a joy for us to to see the impact that this book is having on adults. As you say, as you share um as well, so it's really a blessing for us to see how this book is striking a chord with women in the church. So, thank you.
Speaker 1:And it will, because I interview a lot of female authors, a lot, and have spoken to hundreds of women thousands, by this point. And even now, even today, not three hours ago, did I have a woman on you know that was asking do I still have a voice in the kingdom? Do I have a, you know? So it's, it's still there, you know, and we have our work cut out for us. But you've given us a great tool and I just can't wait to share it. I can't wait to read it and share it, and tell my library about it and all the churches. So, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I appreciate your courage, be brave, be strong.
Speaker 2:Awesome.
Speaker 1:Thanks, heartlifters. What a remarkable conversation, an illuminating conversation with Rob and Amy Dixon about their new children's book, penny Preaches. It brings to our table ideas that need to be talked through. That's what we're about here, and so I just appreciate the time and the energy that Rob and Amy gave us today. Rob's words that it's just unjust that half of God's team is sitting on the bench I really can't get that visual out of my mind. So that is a great food for thought. I don't want half of the team to be sitting on the bench. We need to activate the matriarchal spirit, the matriarchal presence and, most of all, the matriarchal voice. I know that word matriarch conjures images, but it is important for the maternal presence Maybe that's easier to swallow, easier to swallow the maternal presence, the mothering spirit to be activated, because I believe it is time. The world we're living in needs the maternal spirit, the presence of maternal voices, and I really love when Rob and Amy both say it's hard to be what you can't see. So we are heartlifters here. We are called to unleash the power of God's presence in our spheres of influence.
Speaker 1:I invite you, please, to come to the table. We have this conversation going on over at Heart Lift Central on Substack. All you have to do is go to JanelleRairdoncom and you will find all the points to connect, and that's the point to connect. So I will see you over on Substack, heart Lift Central, instagram at Janelle Rairdon, and I have reactivated our Facebook page. It is now Today's Heart Lift with Janelle, so some of you I know are on Facebook and just can't make that leap to Substack. I get it, but the point is for us to connect, collaborate, collaborate and have the conversation around our table Until next time.
