Today's Heartlift with Janell
Sometimes the story we tell ourselves is not really true. Sometimes the story others tell about us is not really true. On "Today's Heartlift with Janell," Author, Trauma-informed, board-certified marriage and family specialist, and Professional Heartlifter, Janell Rardon, opens conversations about how emotional health and mental fitness effects absolutely every area of our lives. When we possess and practice healthy, strong, resilient emotional health practices, life is so much better. Read Janell's newest book, "Stronger Every Day: 9 Tools for an Emotionally Healthy You."
Today's Heartlift with Janell
316. Cultivating Psychological Flexibility: A Mother's Guide to Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
Psychological flexibility transforms how we mother and mature. I welcome psychologist Jill Stoddard to explore how Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) can help women navigate anxiety, stress, and the challenges of parenting with more significant presence and authenticity.
• Understanding psychological flexibility as being present, being open to internal experiences, and making value-aligned choices.
• Learning that values are how we appear in life—not feelings, outcomes, or others' behaviors.
• Recognizing avoidance patterns: The Doer, The Hider, The Compulsive, The Thinker, and The Otherer.
• Practicing mindful willingness through simple exercises like changing hand positions or breathing techniques.
• Breaking the cycle of resistance with the mantra: "This is uncomfortable, but it's just a feeling. It is not dangerous; it is temporary, and I can handle it."
• Distinguishing between acceptance of internal experiences (ACT) and radical acceptance of external reality (DBT).
• Finding ways to apply ACT principles during challenging parenting moments with young children.
Take the quiz to discover your avoidance pattern at jillstoddard.com/quizzes and explore Jill's books "Be Mighty" and "Impostor No More" for guided exercises on developing psychological flexibility.
Be sure to check out Jill's "Two-Minute Tips" on Substack.
Begin Your Heartlifter's Journey:
- Visit and subscribe to Heartlift Central on Substack. This is our new online coaching center and meeting place for Heartlifters worldwide.
- Download the "Overcoming Hurtful Words" Study Guide PDF: BECOMING EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY
- Meet me on Instagram: @janellrardon
- Leave a review and rate the podcast: WRITE A REVIEW
- Learn more about my books and work: Janell Rardon
- Make a tax-deductible donation through Heartlift International
As I've listened to the stories of thousands of women of all ages in all kinds of stages through the years, I've kept their stories locked in the vault of my heart.
Speaker 1:I feel as if they've been walking around with me all through these years. They've bothered me, they've prodded me and sometimes kept me up at night. Ultimately, they've increased my passion to reframe and reimagine the powerful positions of mother and matriarch within the family system. Mother and matriarch within the family system. I'm a problem solver, so I set out to find a way to perhaps change the trajectory of this silent and sad scenario about a dynamic yet untapped source of potential and purpose sitting in our homes and churches. It is time to come to the table, heartlifters, and unleash the power of maternal presence into the world. Welcome to Mothering for the Ages, our 2025 theme here on Today's Heart Lift. I'm Janelle. I am your guide here on this heartlifting journey. I invite you to grab a pen, a journal and a cup of something really delicious. May today's conversation give you clarity, courage and a revived sense of camaraderie. You see, you're not on this journey alone. We are unified as heartlifters and committed to bringing change into the world, one heart at a time.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to today's Heart Lift with Janelle. I'm Janelle, I'm your guide for today's conversation. We have with us today someone I've really wanted to talk to, jill A Stoddard. She has written Be Mighty A Women's Liberation from Anxiety, worry and Stress Using Mindfulness and Acceptance. This year, as you know, we have dedicated our time here on the podcast, on Heart Lift, central Substack, on our new Today's Heart Lift with Janelle, on our Facebook group Connect, please, all of those places. Just go to my website. You will see how to connect. But I wanted to give you, mamas, and all of us grandmas, the understanding of all the different and all of us grandmas, the understanding of all the different modalities that are out there to help us become emotionally and mentally, relationally, spiritually healthy. And so today, jill is bringing to the table a much-needed conversation on the core concepts of ACT, of ACT, acceptance and Commitment Therapy. You may have heard it talked about as ACT, so, once again, these core concepts of ACT, acceptance and Commitment Therapy are a very popular modality used by many, many counselors, therapists, coaches in their work.
Speaker 1:I have used it. I love the simplicity of it and I love, I just love so many things about it, one being that it helps us really learn and train ourselves to be psychologically flexible. If we can do this, I think that our lives and how we move through our lives will increase our capacity to be wholehearted and healthy human beings and therefore lead our families, guide our children, no matter what age they are, into healthy emotional health themselves. She is also going to show us how to cultivate. Might M-I-G-H-T, as the title of her book, be Mighty through mindfulness? I just really love it. So I think you really might need a journal, a pen and a cup of something delicious, because Jill brings so much to the table today. Okay, you ready, let's welcome Jill. Oh, my goodness, jill, yes, you're finally here, and I am just so thrilled to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for carving out time from a life with an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old.
Speaker 2:Of course you're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. This is my favorite thing is to nerd out about all things psychology and mental health.
Speaker 1:Mine too, which is so strange and so weird, but I do, I love it. I just eased out of 13 years of private practice myself. My husband retired and I was doing my practice in my home and, yeah, it was just time to move forward. So, but today I really. You have two incredible books, many more, but two this Be Mighty, a Woman's Liber liberation which I love that word from anxiety, worry and stress using mindfulness and acceptance. And then your newest, imposter syndrome. So, as I said before we started, this is a tough call to choose between the two, because I definitely know so many of us have imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1:But I really wanted to dial back a bit and go to Be Mighty, your earlier book, because you speak of ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy, and I have introduced so many psychological theories and therapeutic practices on the show. That was initially why I started it, and yet I've never talked about ACT. And so in my research you showed up and I thought, well, let me just see if I can get Jill on the show. And you said, yes, can't believe it. Here I am this year, as I said, we're really looking at the mothering part of our lives, moving from mothering to matriarchy, but just being the healthiest mamas we can be, emotionally and mentally and physically, of course. Relationally, what is acceptance and commitment therapy and what drew you to it, sure, and kept you in it these several decades, these many years?
Speaker 2:Yes, many, many years. I love that we're talking about Be Mighty. It's a perfect book to honor moms, because it's specifically for women who are struggling with anxiety, worry and stress, and what moms don't struggle?
Speaker 1:with those things at some point right.
Speaker 2:Yes, so ACT is a therapy like newer-ish as far as therapy goes, but it's been around for a few decades at this point, and it really has one primary goal, and the goal is psychological flexibility.
Speaker 2:And what psychological flexibility is is our ability to be in this present moment, because it's the only one that we've got aware of, and open to all of our internal experiences.
Speaker 2:So that's thoughts, emotions, physical sensations, urges. So we know what we're experiencing, we are open to it, we are allowing it, we are expanding, so we're not doing anything to avoid or suppress or escape. And then we're making conscious, deliberate decisions about how to show up, what to do or what not to do, and we're basing that on our deeply held personal values, or what I just call the me that we want to be. So, like the opposite of that psychological inflexibility is what you might think of when you're on autopilot, when your inner critic or your fear is dictating your choices, even if those choices that, while that might give you some relief in the moment to avoid something scary, it may not be consistent with the person you want to be or the life that you want to live. And so that would be the psychological inflexibility and we're trying to move people to a place of cultivating more flexibility. So as long as you're helping clients build psychological flexibility, you're doing act.
Speaker 1:I've never heard it coined. I mean, this is the thing. I say this all the time here and in my life and in my therapy room when I was in that is, there is just so much to learn. There are so many theories, there are so many practices, so many still being brought into the world to this day. And so the term psychological flexibility. I just don't remember it coming across my path. It probably did in my master's study, but you learn so much in a short amount of time, so I think that's what is most critical today to bring to all of us is understanding what that really is.
Speaker 1:You have just said it so well, but maybe break it down even more that if I'm moving through my day with psychological flexibility as opposed to inflexibility, what might those differences look like in my day? I'm a mama of young children. I'm a grandmother who's exhausted, with this beautiful blessing of five grandchildren that live all over the world. That's my story. And flying here, flying there, flying here, flying there, one can get very inflexible, especially when a lot of voices are coming at you from different areas. So just what might it look like, jill?
Speaker 2:Well, to put it really simply, I mean, I think of it as kind of having three main parts. First and foremost is identifying what your values even are.
Speaker 1:I love this.
Speaker 2:Values are partly what you're doing, but more importantly, they're how you're doing it. So, for example, if we go with this kind of family example so family is a domain, it's not a value Some people will say I value family, but really this is a a domain, it's not a value. Some people will say I value family, but really this is a value domain. So, under that domain of family, what are you doing? So let's say I decide as a mom gosh, I'm feeling a little disconnected from the family. I'm going to start doing Sunday dinner and game night where we can all get together. Ok, so this is under that domain of family. It's an action that I'm taking that's in line with this sort of value domain.
Speaker 1:But if I'm showing up, to that night and I'm scrolling through my phone the whole time. That's not values. That's not values right.
Speaker 2:So it's not just what you're doing, it's how you're doing it. So that means your values are really about the qualities you embody. So I want to be present, playful, loving, affectionate, kind, respectful, that kind of thing Connected, yes. So that's an interesting one, this is where things get a little we'll get into the real nitty gritty here. I love it. What values? I just told you what values are. Here's what they are not. Values are not feelings, because we can't control our feelings.
Speaker 2:So I'll have clients say, oh, I really value being calm. Well, good luck with that, Because sometimes we're just not calm as much as we would like to be, and so values really have to be something you can actually control. And the only thing whether we want to admit it or not the only thing we really control is our hands and our feet in our mouth.
Speaker 1:That's it, that's it.
Speaker 2:So they can't be feelings Okay. They are also not about how others treat us. So some people might say I really value being respected.
Speaker 2:Well, you can act in ways that make that more likely, but at the end of the day, that's really up to another person. Yes, I value belonging. Same thing you can act in ways that make it more likely others include you, but at the end of the day it's not really up to you. And then, finally, they're also not outcomes, because there are a lot of things that go into an outcome that we don't control, so I let it go. When I have clients who say they value connection, I'm like okay, but I'm going to make this one little caveat, which is similar to belonging or respect. You can do all the right things to make connection likely but, like you know, when you go out to coffee with a new person and the chemistry just isn't, there and you just don't click, or with if you're dating, you might date 10 people and they're not bad guys.
Speaker 2:They're just not your guy or your girl, you know. And so that's something to keep in mind is it has to be something that you can actually control. So I'm doing game night and I'm going to show up and be present and playful and loving and all of these kinds of things. Okay, so that's kind of step one. What are my values? Who is the me that I want to be? Now, what's getting in the way of that? So, in this example, the urge to check my phone if it's dinging and danging might be an obstacle. My mind, you know that sense of urgency that anxiety that shows up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, too many of urgency.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly yes, and so step two would be it's not really in steps, but I'm just trying to break it down to make it easy. It's really helpful, thank you Would be awareness of what you're thinking and feeling. So you got to know that you're having these thoughts and feelings to even do anything about it, and then it's. It's essentially the way. It's kind of different from some other therapies like cognitive behavioral therapy is, instead of us trying to control or change our thoughts and feelings, we're changing our relationship to them.
Speaker 1:This is what I love. Yeah right, this is the bells and the whistles to me is right here.
Speaker 2:I agree. And what clients will say is oh, it's such a relief because I've tried so hard to change my thoughts, I've tried so hard to change my feelings and I can't do it. So now I'm anxious and I feel like a failure, and so there's this, really there's this freedom and empowerment that comes with changing your Liberation.
Speaker 2:Liberation. Exactly that's why it's in the title of the book. So what that looks like is willingness, or it's the A in ACT. It's acceptance, the acceptance of acceptance, commitment therapy, and the way that. I think the easiest way to understand what that means is it's getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. That's it. Yeah, it's willingness. I mean, think how many choices we make because we don't want to feel a feeling.
Speaker 2:And if I could wave a magic wand and make everybody able to feel whatever feeling happens to show up, think of all the things you would do or not do. You would take on opportunities you've been shying away from. You'd stop snapping at people. You'd have difficult conversations that you don't want to have. Your relationships would change. So it's getting comfortable being uncomfortable. Now, that is easier said than done, of course, and so this is something that I practice with clients, kind of like you know the way you would train for a marathon If you've never run, you wouldn't go run 26.2. You'd jog around the block. So like, for example, we can do this right now. Your listeners can do it as long as they're not driving their car.
Speaker 2:Just fold your hands the way that feels natural and comfortable and notice how it feels. And now switch it. So your fingers are one all one over. Okay, Now notice how that feels.
Speaker 1:So this is like the funny feeling way.
Speaker 2:Now especially notice how you want to let go, how you want to switch back, because that's what we respond to right or that you're clinging. And so can you notice and open and breathe? And when I do a lot of public speaking, teaching and training type stuff, and so I'll practice this or something else with my audience, and then I have them repeat this mantra after me, which is basically this is uncomfortable, do you want to repeat it after me, or do you want me to just go through it?
Speaker 1:Okay, this is uncomfortable, this is uncomfortable, but it's just a feeling. But it's just a feeling. It is not dangerous. It is not dangerous, it is temporary, it is temporary and I can handle it. And I can handle it.
Speaker 2:Right, and so there are loads of ways that we can practice this. So, for myself, you had asked me in the beginning and I didn't answer your question how I got into ACT, and it was when I was in graduate school. There were two psychologists doing a study and they were using clients in the anxiety clinic that I worked in and I became one of the therapists on their study and I just fell head over heels in love because it resonated so much with me. Wait, values, wait, getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. Oh, I just lost my train of thought about- ways that you, oh, I know.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, even though I know this is the like 52 year old hormones making me not be able to think anymore.
Speaker 1:No, it's because you have so much to offer.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that reframe. So I have been doing this in my own life, for I mean, that was probably 2001-ish, so over 20 years. If I have cash, like anyone does, I want it to be all facing the same way, in denominational order. You will never, ever find it that way in my wallet, because I practice being uncomfortable with little things all the time.
Speaker 2:So the cashier gives me my cash and it's all out of order and messy and I shove it in my wallet and I don't like it and I really want to switch it and I open and I breathe and I allow and I do that with all sorts of things. Wow, that's so good. So what I encourage is for people to look for opportunities.
Speaker 2:You see my shoulders, yes, to look for opportunities. You see my shoulders, yes, like sit, you know, next time you take a shower just make it a little too hot or a little too cold for a little bit and open it, you know. And if your shoulders are up, bring your shoulders down, like open, be receptive, notice the experience without doing anything to resist that experience. So that's the idea. And then the other piece, because I had said it's kind of three pieces. The other piece is what you do with your thoughts.
Speaker 1:So the getting comfortable.
Speaker 2:Being uncomfortable is your feelings, sensations, emotions, et cetera. And then it's your thoughts. What do we do when that inner critic comes up, that catastrophizer shows up telling? You all the terrible things that are going to happen.
Speaker 2:Little Miss Histrionic yes, All of that Right, and then the idea there again, instead of battling to try to change the thought. Now listen, if you can change the thoughts and that works to help you move forward with your values, great, go for it. But a lot of the thoughts that are in the like I'm not good enough realm those deeper kind of core beliefs.
Speaker 1:Those are pretty resistant to the imposter thoughts.
Speaker 2:They're quite resistant to change for various reasons, and so, in that case again, we change our relationship to them, and that really looks like taking them less seriously, taking them as what they are, which is just sounds and syllables, not facts, you know. And so getting some distance, being able to observe them as what they are, and then, in that space, really choosing. You know, if I listen to this thought, is it going to make me, is it going to help me be the me I want to be? Is it going to help me cultivate the life I want to live or not? And if not, can I have these thoughts and still choose to do what my values tell me? Choose to do what my values tell me? So that might mean what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:I'm doing in the presence of difficult thoughts and discomfort, doing it in the presence of pain. Right right, opposing thoughts. Yeah, is that safe to say? Yeah, sure, absolutely Like the naysayer in the brain.
Speaker 2:All of it, you'll never do that.
Speaker 1:I think that's the hardest tension for me and that's why I do love the simplicity of act and the fact that you start with values first. So I have a great values chart I'll put on our show notes. If you have an even better one that you use, I'd love for you to send that to me. I just identified connection as a value, and it's not, it's a feeling. Well, I'd love for you to send that to me.
Speaker 2:Like I just identified, connection as a value, and it's not. It's a feeling. You know what I mean. As long as you've got the, as long as you have the caveat.
Speaker 1:I know I get that, though or family I value family, you know. I mean, I would say, I would have said that to you.
Speaker 2:Like what if you said you know what are your values?
Speaker 1:I value family. Okay, well, that's great. You know that's an umbrella, but I really love how you broke that down and that's not wrong.
Speaker 2:No, no, this is just how we think about it in act. There are plenty of people that would say you know, I value family and that's fine.
Speaker 1:Right and we're talking about a theory.
Speaker 2:And if that's useful to people to help them get moving in the directions that matter to them, then that's perfectly fine.
Speaker 1:We don't have to get picky about that kind of language. Oh, no, no, no. But I love this language you're giving me, because even a few minutes ago, when you were walking us through that exercise, I felt the very last thing you said was this-.
Speaker 2:Do I want to listen to this thought or not? Is listening going to move me in the directions that matter? I can handle this, oh, I can handle, oh, when we did the handful, yes, yes, yes, I can handle it. And I do want to say, you know, saying this is just a feeling that's not meant to be invalidating- oh no.
Speaker 2:Like having a panic attack. That's really hard and it is just a feeling and it isn't going to hurt you and it is temporary and you can handle it. And so it's just reminding yourself of these things you already know and this is why I keep my money all messed up in my wallet, because we have to practice all the time, because if you don't practice and then you think you're going to be able to do this when you're having a panic attack, good luck, it's not going to happen, right?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm just laughing because my money is in order in my wallet. I just got back from a trip to South America so I made sure I got it all ordered. And I'm laughing because I would care more I think about a cashier or someone waiting on me if my wallet was all out of order. I would not care. My care would be that that person's going to judge me, because that's one of my problems in my life. You know that I've been judged my whole life in front of and then there's the awareness.
Speaker 2:So you know that's probably one of your buttons, yes. And so when that fear shows up and you engage in actions that are being driven by that fear and those thoughts, they're going to judge me. I feel scared. Is that moving you in the direction of your values or not? And often what that looks like is people pleasing, avoiding certain social situations that then results in burnout or resentment. And so it's really looking at like what is the function of our behavior? Because it works or we wouldn't do it right, like procrastination, for example, we can all agree, probably not helpful. We've all done it Well. In the moment you give yourself permission to put something off, what do you get? Relief?
Speaker 2:It works or we wouldn't do it. But then tomorrow you have the same amount to do, less time to do it. So now you're doubly stressed right, and so it's understanding what is the function of this behavior. Because it works or you wouldn't do it. And then what is the cost? No-transcript, and the only time I went was the only time I had to spend with my children and spending time with my children matters to me now it has a cost, so you're sort of always asking what is this behavior in the service of?
Speaker 2:Is it avoidance? And if it is, does it have a cost? If not, it's probably fine.
Speaker 1:But if it is, does it have a cost? I'm sure it's in Be Mighty, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yes, it's in all my books, it's all I write about because I feel so passionately about how powerful and effective it is yes.
Speaker 1:I am an avoider. Let me just say I have a void and attachment. I've worked my last few years on earning my secure attachment came from an alcoholic home, okay. So I think that's why I was also drawn to your work, because a big part of ACT is, like you said, having psychological flexibility, not punishing myself because I avoid, which, trust me, I punish myself a lot and I know a lot of my heart lifters do too. We're very high functioning, so we say that's how we would identify ourselves. Pushing through, pushing through I mean we've, you know, we have pushed through traumatic childhoods, you know, to get to where we are, bravo. But I don't really want to push through anymore. I really want to be my real me, like you're saying. I want to be true to me.
Speaker 1:When I first heard you say that, I went well, I still don't know if I know who that me is. I'm still trying to understand who that true me is, because so many things were put on me and my life names and labels and things like that. So I love that. That's a driving, beautiful, not a driving in a bad way, but a beautiful river through your work of you know. Am I staying true to me? No, I'm not staying true to me if I avoid conflict. I'm not staying true to me if I go to yoga five times a week for eight hours. Right, I'm not true to me because true to me is the person that wants to look in the mirror and go. I love you, girl. You're doing good. Is that a good way to frame it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would say we don't need to figure out who am I in a big global way. I'm always going to show up at this person. It really is just about who's the me. I want to be in this one moment, love this and even though our values don't really change, the ones we choose to prioritize may depend on context, and so you gave the example of conflict avoidance. So you may, if you're talking about like with one of your adult children or with your partner you may not.
Speaker 2:You know you don't want to avoid conflict because that relationship is important and it's important to work through those things. But if you're in a grocery store and a stranger is being a jerk, that might be a time that you do choose to avoid conflict. But that doesn't mean it's all avoidance. There can be values inherent in. Maybe in that moment you're prioritizing safety boundaries, self-preservation, this kind of thing, and that's okay too. The point is like choice with a capital C. It's not just running for the hills on autopilot all the time, it's really getting clear on like who's the me. I want to be in this particular moment and I love if you think about the word moment like picture, how it's spelled. The word me is right in the middle of that word, so you can imagine the word moment with the word me in the middle of it Like who is, and the word mom is also in that.
Speaker 1:I want to be, in this moment who's?
Speaker 2:the me. I want to be in this moment. I want to be in this moment, so good.
Speaker 1:And then show it that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's easier said than done Sometimes that's a very difficult thing to do but we're here.
Speaker 1:That's what we love, that you sat down and and and said yes to us, because you are really, really helping us. You're helping me so very much. I do want to ask if you would move into the imposter syndrome book for just a moment, because before we hit record you told me that you go deeper in that book about types of avoiders. And as much as I cringed and said I don't think I want to take that quiz and find out what kind of avoider I really do want to know, because the real me wants to be a whole me, a very, you know, authentic me. I want it more in my life than ever, and so can you go through those? Sure, that's my top.
Speaker 2:my top value too, by the way, janelle is like authenticity. I really want to show up as someone that you know, like what you see is what you get, and you can trust that what is coming out of my mouth is is consistent with what's in my brain.
Speaker 1:And um, so yeah.
Speaker 2:I like, yes, exactly Like that. That resonates a lot with me. So, yeah, so in imposter no more. Um, and, by the way, I go into a bit of detail about how we really should not be calling it a syndrome, because it is a very normal experience and it is not a disorder, a disease or a pathology. In fact, I just put up a little video series on LinkedIn about all the reasons not to call it imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1:Okay, I will put that link in the show notes. So we're rebranding it. Yeah, rebranded, yes, I mean actually going back.
Speaker 2:What it was originally called was the imposter phenomenon, and it was thought to only occur in high achieving women. And then our culture in the late seventies decided oh well, if it's all, if it's happening to girls, it must be a syndrome.
Speaker 2:So there's it does occur with boys too, but initially they thought it was only girls, only women, and so they quickly labeled it a syndrome. So there's sexism baked into that and then there's various other reasons too. So anyway, but so I identified I've been an anxiety specialist for many years and you know that is where we see a lot of avoidance with anxiety and fear, and some colleagues and I kind of got together and came up with like every specific version of avoidance we could think of, like everything we could think of. Would love to have been at that table that sounds so fun.
Speaker 2:I would have sent you the list, had we known each other back then. And then I grouped them into five different categories and so basically and so this is not super scientific, I mean it's- pseudoscientific, but so far, people are like yeah, I think this actually works.
Speaker 2:So the first one I'll raise my hand this is me is the doer. This is the person with the to-do list Go, go, go, do, do, do. And as long as I'm busy and as long as I'm doing all this stuff, then there's no time for me to worry and be anxious. And then when I have downtime, I'm very uncomfortable. That's the doer. Then there's the opposite of the doer, which is the hider, and so this is the person who maybe is going to be more likely to avoid the social situation. Who's going to go take a nap if they're feeling stressed? So there, it's kind of like overdoing versus underdoing as a way to avoid anxiety. Um, there's the, the pulsive, and so the pulsive is the person who engages in either compulsive or impulsive behavior skin picking, nail biting, ocd, like you know, compulsive tendencies, that kind of thing eating, gambling, sex, these. Then there is the thinker, this is the worrier, the catastrophizer, the. If I can think through every possible thing that might go wrong, then I'll be able to prevent bad things from happening.
Speaker 2:I got to overanalyze every single decision before I make the decision, that kind of thing. And then there's the otherer, and this is the. I'm just going to rely on everybody else to make the decisions, and and you and most people do all of these at some point. But there's usually one that's kind of the more prominent, dominant, exactly, and so when you take the quiz, it'll show you what percentage of each of these oh, I can't wait, this is so fun.
Speaker 2:If people want to take that quiz, just go to jillstoddardcom slash quizzes and there's an imposter syndrome quiz. It's because there are these five subtypes of imposter and then there's the five types of avoider. We're there already, and so that other is you choose the movie, you choose the restaurant, because what if I pick it and everyone hates it? And then they're mad at me? Or it's the reassurance seeking at me, or it's the reassurance seeking. Are we cool? Are you sure you love me? Am I okay? Are you okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, oh, my God, yeah, that was a counterintuitive movement in my work of late a couple years ago or whatever. It was like I can't, I gave, I made myself. I can't ask the people in my life are you okay, are we okay, are we okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, that has been the hardest thing in my life to accomplish to go like well, you know, when I think of that I I would always ask the question okay, well, what is this in the service of? If this is in the service of you reassurance seeking because you're anxious and it's damaging your relationship Cause they're like, oh my God, enough, stop asking. If I'm okay, then I agree, stop doing that. But there are ways to do that. That can also be values driven. Like if I'm sensing tension with someone I really care about and I'm pretty clear that things aren't quite all right or they're not okay because they're acting disunderstandoffish, then I can go to that person and say hey, I'm really worried about you. I've noticed that you've been really quiet. You seem kind of shut down. Is there anything that you need? Is there anything?
Speaker 1:that I can do.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad I said that, yeah, and so it's not always. This is good, this is bad, it's. What is this in the service of, and is it values driven, or really is it just about me and my own discomfort and trying to get comfortable in ways that probably tend to backfire over time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't want to brush over that. What is this in service of? Like, that is just, it's part of your DNA because you've been in this work for so long? Right, that's true. Because you've been in this work for so long, right, that's true. You know, those of us who are newer and new to ACT or this mode of making your way through life right, I'm not sure that I would ever stop, even an hour ago, and go. What is my depression in service of? What is this negativity coming out of my mouth in service of? Is this true to who I want to be in this moment? I mean, listen, I'm already activating the principles. You've made it so simple, so you're right on the money, but so thank you.
Speaker 1:I mean an hour ago, two hours ago. You know this all might be part of a jet lag, but but I'm I'm just been so negative and tired and exhausted. But it's like I love the idea of almost. It's almost, but you're not grabbing in a but. It's like shaking yourself with a little like self-compassion, like wait a minute, girl, this is not serving who you want to be. You don't want to move through life like this. You know your word for the year is joy building and here you are, being all, nancy, negative. I guess what I love is the self-talk, is that even part of an act.
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean, I think you can say that in terms of because you know you're doing sort of an internal inventory you know, whatever you want to call it. Internally, it's like what matters to me. Who do I want to be in this moment? What am I doing? Is that consistent with, with, you know, with?
Speaker 1:who I want to be in this moment.
Speaker 2:Right, I do want to say I think you just brought something up that can get complicated. This can sound simple and then you're like well, wait, I don't want to be negative. My word for the year is positivity or whatever you just said, joy building, joy building. But also you just told me a couple of minutes ago that you really want to be authentic. And guess what? Our authentic self isn't joyful all the time.
Speaker 2:No, right, no so then you come into this place where it might feel like these things are competing a little bit, and again it's how do I want to show up in this moment? And if I really want to be authentic, then it may be that I explain to the people. You know, I know that I'm kind of negative today. I'm super jet lagged. I'm just tired and grumpy. It's temporary, I know I'll snap out of it soon. It's nothing personal, just in a funk today.
Speaker 1:That would be authentic. It would be. Right and as opposed to and not the pretender right.
Speaker 2:Yes and right, and that if you're like, oh well, I don't wanna be, well okay, you could also do your best to snap yourself out of it. If you were like, you know what I really wanna be, someone who practices gratitude, who doesn't focus on the little bit of negative when I know I have so many blessings. And so I'm going to choose to really try to shift my perspective today so that I can focus on those things, because that's the kind of person I want to be in the world, so both of those can be value driven.
Speaker 1:We always say, we always say one of the biggest things in this community is you have to learn how to hold things in both hands. So joy and sorrow. So you would be saying we hold authenticity with reality. But then, as I hold my hands and maybe shift my fingers and just knowing, okay, in this moment I am exhausted, so it's making me negative. So I'm going to go take a nap. Yeah, I'm going to go get some rest. Go get some rest, janelle. Be gentle with yourself. That's probably the most productive thing you could do.
Speaker 2:Because the value I'm prioritizing is self-care.
Speaker 1:That's correct.
Speaker 2:Because the value I'm prioritizing is self-care. That's correct, right, so that's yeah, absolutely Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 1:That's so helpful on so many levels for me and, I know, for those listening, because we are in a society of productivity and you know Right.
Speaker 2:Right and sometimes like giving yourself permission to sit on the sofa and a cozy blanket and watch television, and maybe you're avoiding a party to do that, and maybe you were anxious about the party and now you're not going to the party and you feel relief and if you're being honest with yourself, you're avoiding the party. What that's avoid? What is that in the service of avoidance? But can it also be in service of values? Yes, If you're saying you know what? I've had the flu for the last week, I or I worked through the flu or I've been working six years.
Speaker 1:I am exhausted.
Speaker 2:There aren't actually that many people at this party that I feel very close to that. I'm like super excited to see, or these are people I just saw last week or I'm going to see again next week, and today I'm going to give myself permission to take care of myself and rest and slow down. But what's important is you have to be really honest with yourself, because you could get sneaky and there could be a lot of rationalizing and justifying where all of a sudden, you seem to be avoiding.
Speaker 2:You seem to be doing a lot of self-care and not getting out into the world. I was doing air quotes. I don't know if you release this on video.
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:So you know, you really do have to be honest with yourself. Do that kind of inquiry about, like, all right, maybe this is turning from self-care into avoidance and I'm making excuses and I need to now put myself out there, even if it's hard for me to do that, even if it's a counterintuitive movement.
Speaker 1:I do a lot of that. Like you were saying, the counterintuitive movement for you is to not keep your bills in your wallet organized because that's your, you know, ordered self. That would be my husband for sure, you know it's like loving order. But I really appreciate the concentration, I guess, or the emphasis that we're putting on recognizing the avoidance. You know, obviously we have to always become aware first before any change can happen Absolutely. But it's like I almost I like to personify emotions and feelings and values or whatever. But I think personifying, oh hi, avoidance. I see you, I recognize you, I understand that I am, I'm being lured away into that world of avoidance again. You know, just creating a little storyline for myself, you know. Or hi, sadness. I have sat on this floor behind me and had a really long conversation with sadness capital.
Speaker 1:S you know, which is why I love the Inside Out movies so much, because they're just by the emotions.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what, in ACT, we would call this defusion?
Speaker 1:Oh, tell us. Okay, it has a name.
Speaker 2:It's more specific to thoughts. But D-fusion not like diffusing a bomb, d-e-fusion it's a made up word that doesn't exist. So fusion is like when you're hooked by your thoughts, like Velcro. D-fusion is when you're unhooking, you're separating, you're looking at your thoughts, and there are lots of ways to do that and one is doing this personification no-transcript.
Speaker 2:And it is not suppression, like it is not go away, sheila, I have to push you down. You know, one of my favorite metaphors for that is like if you imagine being in a pool with like a floating beach ball, oh yeah, and you try to stuff the beach ball under the water. It takes all of your energy and attention and effort and you can do it. You can do it, but you can't do anything else as long as you're focused on that and then what happens?
Speaker 2:a hundred percent of the time the ball poofs. And the further you stuff it down, the further it comes up. So you know, this is a great metaphor for avoidance, whether it's trying to suppress thoughts, whether it's trying to push down feelings.
Speaker 1:they're going to find their way back, and they might even be more powerful than they were when you pushed them Right.
Speaker 2:So this idea of like thank you, sheila, I've got this is not go away. Sheila, I'm stuffing you down and pretending you're not talking. It's like you can be over here chattering away at me. We can coexist, we can coexist. You can even sit in the passenger seat of my car and attempt to be my co-pilot, but I'm going to choose. I'm mixing a lot of metaphors here, but.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be the one with my hands on the wheel. I choose which way to steer, I choose how fast to push the gas pedal or press the big pedal. You can say whatever you want. I'm not going to waste my time trying to shut you up, but I'm going to be in charge of what I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're driving the bus. My values, yeah, right, right Another yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Emotions don't drive us, we drive them. You know, it's like, exactly, we're behind the wheel and I think that is really important. What you're trying to say to us today particularly to me, I think, this is I'm being very selfish. This is just really helping me, so much Good, I'm glad.
Speaker 2:I hope well. The other thing I love about ACT is that you know it's trans-diagnostic and I don't know about you, but when I was in graduate school it was like here's the manual for trichotillomania and here's the one for OCD and here's the one for depression and like how do you?
Speaker 1:learn so many treatments for so many problems.
Speaker 2:How do you? And ACT is like whether you have a diagnosis or not doesn't matter. Whatever you come into my office with today, my job is going to be to teach you how to cultivate psychological flexibility, and whether you're having relationship issues or mood issues or anxiety issues or bodily illness issues, it doesn't matter. So, as a therapist, you know it's always hard to learn a new therapy if you didn't get it while you were in training, but I do think that this is one that's like really worth exploring, because there's no right or wrong way to do it, as long as you're cultivating psychological flexibility and you can apply it to whatever is going on for the person showing up. And like, how often does someone show up in your office with like one issue?
Speaker 1:Oh, never, never, Right. There's always a million things going on, especially dealing with trauma. I would say most cases would, under all of it, come to some form of childhood trauma or childhood origin or family of origin. You know the little T, middle T, big T and it's origin. You know the little T, middle T, big T, and it's just you know. And what is trauma? The best definition I ever heard is just, you know, the feelings are too big for my body. So what you're telling us here today is you know the feelings are going to be big, big emotions. I have two toddler grandchildren, big emotion, huge. But it's like okay, okay, take a deep breath, put both your hands over your heart and and get giving them some skill. Okay, before we go, ms Jill, before we go, uh, you write these words to be clear. I love this Now that I have your, your, your face in front of me and your body.
Speaker 1:I can see it in your voice, To be clear the purpose of mindfulness is not to change an experience from extremely unpleasant to less unpleasant. That just happens to be a nice byproduct. This is, in your chapter, completely given to mindfulness, which is one of my passions. Cultivating mindfulness means greater awareness of internal experiences, in the absence of judgment that was the hardest thing for me to learn or letting go of judgments each time they arise, which threatens to steer us away from living our best lives. Or, as you have taught us, to be true to our truest self, greater.
Speaker 1:And here's where you're talking about the detonator and the bomb, that metaphor Greater awareness creates space between detonator internal experiences and bomb impulsive reactions. In that space, bombs can be deactivated through acceptance, the defusion. You just told us about our contact with values and deliberate choice in service of those values, and so that's the context and the basis of ACT. So just a few minutes on mindfulness and how we can cultivate that in a way with ACT, in order to perhaps move through our lives with a little more ease. Yeah, you know, I think that's my goal.
Speaker 2:Well, there are many, many ways, and I think what's important is people find the way that really works best for them. I am not a sit on a cushion for 45 minutes and meditate person Like that's just not the way I'm going to do mindfulness. For people who love that and can do that, great, there's loads of research that shows the benefits of doing that. For me, I do more like mini mindfulness throughout my day which is just using my senses to pay attention.
Speaker 2:What do I see, what do I hear, what do I taste, touch? You know those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, your five senses, and you know it's really just about trying to get more present. And as you practice being more present with your senses which is a little bit easier then you can also start to practice getting more aware of your thoughts, your emotions, your sensations, your urges. And these days, when I do act, I very rarely in fact I would pretty much at this point say really never separate willingness and mindfulness. I practice mindful willingness. So really it's about and I'm sorry, willingness and acceptance are interchangeable, they're synonyms with each other. So mindful acceptance, and so when we did that exercise with the handholding, that was mindfulness.
Speaker 2:But it was also practicing acceptance of the discomfort, because you can do anything mindfully. You can shave your legs mindfully.
Speaker 1:So when I shave my legs.
Speaker 2:I never do it in the order I want to do it. I start in the back and then I go out of order because it's wrong and I hate it.
Speaker 1:You are rocking my boat.
Speaker 2:Right, and then you're practicing mindfulness and willingness at the same time. I mean, so you can kind of I just had this aha moment in this second. I might be outing myself as the go, go, go, do, do, doer, Because I'm like why just do mindfulness or do willingness when you can do both at the same time?
Speaker 1:So it's a little bit healthy, multitasking that's what we'll call it.
Speaker 2:We're combining two practices at the same, at the same time. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm going to end. I want your advice on how to apply ACT to a young mama, because we are devoting ourselves to mothering, the mothering of all ages, mothering for all the ages. She is in bedtime with a two-and-a and a one year old, and the two and a half year old is jumping off the walls, not listening, not obeying. Okay, can I apply act to that in that moment?
Speaker 2:You absolutely can. So I'm glad you asked this question. And, by the way, I had a two and a half year old who was a bouncer off the walls or up until he was probably seven. Two and a half year old who was a bouncer off the walls or up until he was probably seven. Wow, yeah, he's still a very wiggly dude, but you know, he doesn't almost die on a daily basis like he did when he was that age.
Speaker 1:So my heart goes out to her.
Speaker 2:It is very challenging tiring head on a swivel exhausting. So this makes me think of a point that I didn't make, which is when we're talking about acceptance and willingness in the context of ACT. We're really talking about acceptance of your internal experiences.
Speaker 2:Now, I don't know if you guys have talked much about DBT on your podcast. Dialectical behavior therapy just a little Okay talks about radical acceptance and that's really about acceptance of reality. So maybe you were abused as a child. It doesn't mean it's okay, it doesn't mean you're forgiving your abuser, it means you're simply accepting that this was my reality. Because what other choice do I have but to accept that this was my reality? Okay? So I think that can be applied when we're talking about mothering very difficult or busy toddlers Radical acceptance this is my reality right now. It won't be this way forever, but this is just par for the course. When you are a parent of children this age, it is very difficult. It is what it is. That's kind of how I would say we would practice acceptance of the external In ACT. We're talking about acceptance of the internal.
Speaker 2:That's so good so it's whatever, this little baby boy or girl boy, girl, it's a girl girl. Whatever this baby girl is triggering in mom, you know, impatience or anxiety or dread or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Dread is a good word.
Speaker 2:Yeah so like noticing, making space.
Speaker 2:So that's, I just use breath to make space, because when you inhale you literally expand your chest right, so you can kind of there's an exercise I don't know if it's in Be Mighty, I think it is but it's essentially like imagining that, your discomfort, if you could imagine, like notice in your body where you feel what you're feeling when the kid is being active right, and then imagine you can reach in and pull it out and it takes shape. So the first time I ever did this with my own anxiety, it looked like a you know those steel wool pads but it was vibrating.
Speaker 2:That's what mine was Right. So like what's the shape? Okay, Then invite it back into your body. Notice the resistance, because you're going to go.
Speaker 1:No, I don't want to have a back.
Speaker 2:I don't want a stilly wool pad in my Right. And then you breathe. As you inhale, you expand, you make space, you open, you allow as you exhale, you're exhaling resistance, so you're not exhaling the anxiety dread discomfort.
Speaker 2:You're exhaling the resistance, which is why I do the invite it back in, so you know what resistance feels like. That might also mean letting your shoulders drop your face smooth out, right, because we hold resistance in our bodies too. So you're inhaling to make space open. Allow the discomfort to just be, because it's already here. Acceptance just means you're accepting something that's already here anyway.
Speaker 2:Because the more you try to shove it away, the more you resist and avoid, the bigger it tends to come back, the worse it tends to be. You don't get to be a human without pain, and you sure as heck don't get to be a parent of toddlers without pain you sure don't, but suffering is optional and the resistance part is, I mean, I shouldn't say suffering, resistance is optional. Resistance, yes, and if you can turn down the dial on resistance, you turn down the dial on suffering.
Speaker 2:And one of the ways we do that is to practice this open, allow breathe, let go, and that's not going to make these moments pain-free, but it will make it so that you suffer less in them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because you say what we resist persists.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's not mine. Somebody else said that, and I don't remember who, but young or somebody. I forget who.
Speaker 1:Somebody wise.
Speaker 2:But yeah, somebody very wise many, many years ago said what we resist persists.
Speaker 1:You reminded us, and that is so important.
Speaker 2:It's allowing whatever the discomfort is, but letting go of the resistance. This is uncomfortable but it's just a feeling, it's temporary, it's not dangerous and I can handle it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to write that down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's our lean in moment today and that's really that's a way to facilitate changing your relationship to your internal experiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's very simple and rhythmic, almost you know. Yeah, so a good thing to memorize and therefore put into practice with a whole bunch of thing to memorize and therefore put into practice with a whole bunch of self-compassion. It also releases the pressure from high functioning, if I hear you right, like it's a lot of times those of us who are type A's are high, you know, perfectionist, all those things. We should be the perfect mother in that moment. No, this is a very uncomfortable situation. I hate being here but then walk through those five things. I think that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And you know high functioning is not a problem if there's no cost, but a lot of time high functioning is perfectionism, burnout, et cetera, et cetera, and so in that case you know that's what we want to really keep a keen eye on. And you know where can I let go, where can I let my standards. You know you can have high standards without having perfectionistic standards and can you get clear on your value and I, you know this is a quick podcast, it makes it sound like.
Speaker 1:Oh, just figure out your values.
Speaker 2:There are so many different ways to figure out values and I'll tell you what. I never sit with a client and go. So what do you value? Because it doesn't work. They'll like look at you like a deer in headlights. I wouldn't know how to answer that question either. So if people want metaphors and experiential exercises and actual scripts to start doing some act type exercise exercises, that is there, and then both Be Mighty and Impostor no More. Also have lots of exercises, for you know they're self-help books, but for readers, oh they're very prescriptive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love them.
Speaker 2:They're prescriptive, so you'll be walked through to identify your values, to practice, willingness. Like we're doing this so fast right.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know, trust me, I know, and I'm everybody. Just take an exhale, because it's not A plus B equals C, it's you know. We know here that heart work is hard work.
Speaker 2:And yeah, oh, I love that.
Speaker 1:You know, I've never heard that that's great Heart's in one of my books, but yes, exactly, heart work is hard work, and so we have to have the patience and the endurance to continue on. Jill, please come back. You're just such a good teacher. Just such a good teacher. Your book is so practical. It's all it's who I am too. I like to just have nuts and bolts and and break it down, and I feel like I'm now that I have your bolts and break it down, and I feel like now that I have your face and all your body posture thing, all of these, man, I love them.
Speaker 2:Now you can hear my voice. Yeah, I can hear your voice.
Speaker 1:I almost heard it before I met you, because it's so kind and clear, and so thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny that Be Mighty and Impostor no More are both audiobooks too Perfect. I don't read Be Mighty.
Speaker 1:I didn't get to do mine.
Speaker 2:I don't like that, I know it sounds very weird to have someone else reading your words the way you wouldn't read them, but I did get to read Impostor no More. So that is great Me reading the book, and that was a really fun experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think as an author, author I will put that in any contract in the future, because I had so many people say I don't know. I want to hear you talk to me, yeah, yeah, totally thank you. Thank you so much thank you for having me Janelle.
Speaker 1:This is great. Oh my gosh. It was an honor and we would love to have you back to talk about imposter and avoidance, because, boy, don't we all need that. Thank you, you. Have the best year of your life, jill. I will try you too. Oh, heartlifter.
Speaker 1:One of the most important things I really learned from Jill is when she spoke of countering avoidance. Remember what we resist will persist. So she's helping us to cultivate might through mindfulness, utilizing acceptance and commitment therapy and developing a bring-it-on relationship with whatever internal experiences, which are our thoughts, emotions and sensations Three things. Our thoughts what are we thinking about this specific situation right in this minute? What emotions are rising to the surface and what sensations am I feeling in my body? That's embodiment. Thoughts, emotions, sensations happen to come our way as we develop and cultivate this might through mindfulness. Bring it on. We will stop avoiding and, for me, stop repressing and then gain some agency. We talk about that a lot our personal agency and our autonomy to use our voice and speak with healthy assertiveness.
Speaker 1:If you need some reminders on all of those, go back to the earlier podcast. I will list them in the show notes. That will help us become psychologically flexible. Wow, I am just giving this a standing O and am so excited that we had this conversation with Jill. We will have her back to talk about imposter syndrome. Please, any questions you have, will you meet me at Heart Lift Central on Substack, over on Today's Heart Lift, with Janelle on Facebook and then Instagram at Janelle Reardon. I'm giving you lots of ways to connect and boy do I really want to connect with you. Until next time.
