Today's Heartlift with Janell
Sometimes the story we tell ourselves is not really true. Sometimes the story others tell about us is not really true. On "Today's Heartlift with Janell," Author, Trauma-informed, board-certified marriage and family specialist, and Professional Heartlifter, Janell Rardon, opens conversations about how emotional health and mental fitness effects absolutely every area of our lives. When we possess and practice healthy, strong, resilient emotional health practices, life is so much better. Read Janell's newest book, "Stronger Every Day: 9 Tools for an Emotionally Healthy You."
Today's Heartlift with Janell
Your Feelings Are Not Your Enemies: A Conversation With Dr. Alison Cook
A Summer Replay of One of Our Favorite Conversations here on the podcast: Episode 108. Dr. Alison Cook guides us and helps us understand:
- What if the overwhelming thoughts and feelings you've been trying to suppress, ignore, or overcome could actually become your greatest allies? In this profound conversation with Dr. Allison Cook, PhD, we delve into a revolutionary approach to emotional health through the concept of internal boundaries.
- Dr. Cook introduces us to the Internal Family Systems model, which recognizes the various "parts" within our souls. These managers keep us organized and productive, the firefighters who rush to numb our pain, and the exiles who carry our deepest hurts. Rather than viewing these parts as enemies to be conquered, she teaches us how to set compassionate boundaries with them and transform them into valuable allies.
- At the heart of this conversation is a radical truth: you get a say in your own life. For many of us, especially women, we've been conditioned to trust others' voices over our own. Dr. Cook challenges this pattern by showing how spirit-led self-leadership empowers us to honor our God-given voice while maintaining healthy relationships. This isn't selfish—it's stewardship of the unique self God created you to be.
- We dive deep into the practical "U-turn" process—Focus, Befriend, Invite God, Unburden, and Integrate—that helps us approach overwhelming emotions with curiosity rather than condemnation. Through stories, examples, and theological insights, Dr. Cook demonstrates how this approach differs from spiritual bypassing, offering instead a truly integrated path to healing that honors both psychology and faith.
- Perhaps most beautifully, Dr. Cook introduces us to the concept of "baptized imagination"—engaging our creative right brain alongside our analytical left brain in our healing journey. Like Jesus teaching through parables, sometimes our most profound transformation comes through imagery and narrative rather than mere logic.
Whether you've struggled with people-pleasing, anger, anxiety, or any overwhelming emotion, this conversation offers hope. There's a path to freedom that doesn't require silencing parts of yourself, but instead welcoming them home. Ready to rewrite your story and discover the allies waiting within your soul? Listen now, and take your first step toward inner boundaries that truly set you free.
Visit Dr. Alison Cook's website: Boundaries for Your Soul
Begin Your Heartlifter's Journey:
- Visit and subscribe to Heartlift Central on Substack. This is our new online coaching center and meeting place for Heartlifters worldwide.
- Download the "Overcoming Hurtful Words" Study Guide PDF: BECOMING EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY
- Meet me on Instagram: @janellrardon
- Leave a review and rate the podcast: WRITE A REVIEW
- Learn more about my books and work: Janell Rardon
- Make a tax-deductible donation through Heartlift International
In Boundaries for your Soul, how to Turn your Overwhelming Thoughts and Feelings into your Greatest Allies. Co-author Dr Allison Cook writes what are boundaries? Your boundaries are the borders or limits of who you are and what you do, and what behaviors your own and those of others you will and will not accept. Your spirit, mind, heart, will and body all have boundaries. Understanding these limits helps you honor your individuality and the individuality of others.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the story we tell ourselves is not really true. Sometimes the story others tell about us is not really true. Here on today's Heart Lift with Janelle, we are going to learn how to rewrite our story. So pick up your favorite pen and journal, grab a cup of something delicious and start your heartlifting journey towards living a meaningful life.
Speaker 1:Welcome to today's Heart Lift with Janelle. I am so happy you found your way here in this very crowded marketplace of the podcast world. You are going to be so happy that you did, because today I have the incredible, the wonderful Allison Cook with us. She is the beautiful author, co-author of Boundaries of the Soul. I'm just going to tell you a little bit from the get-go here and then you can just read all about Alison on our website and all the places and in the show notes, because I just want to get right to her wisdom and her heart and her beautiful spirit. She is an MA and a PhD, so should I call you Dr Cook?
Speaker 3:Alison's great.
Speaker 1:I want my PhD. So bad Allison. Oh, I will be the oldest PhD student in the world, maybe, but I'm going to do it one day. She's a counselor, speaker and, as I said, co-author of this wonderful book. Oh my goodness, it's so good. It's just so good. For over 15 years, she's helped women, ministry leaders, couples and families learn how to heal painful emotions we're all about that here Develop confidence from the inside out, forge healthy relationships.
Speaker 1:So you know I love her because she's just everything that we are and fully live out their God-given potential. She earned her MA in counseling from Denver Seminary and then that wasn't enough, so she went back for her PhD, and this is one thing that really does make me resonate with you, allison, so much, because it's in religion and psychology. From the University of Denver she's certified in internal family systems, this model of therapy, and she has a certificate in spiritual leadership from Leadership Transformations Inc. She has a counseling practice located in the greater Boston area and she specializes in the integration, once again, of this faith and psychology, which is very important in my work, and so I know that drew me to you and you exposit on it, you teach on it, you train on it so well. So welcome.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1:So happy that you're here especially to talk about this issue of boundaries in our soul and teach us about the soul. And then another huge thing I want to introduce to my community, stronger Every Day, is the internal family systems theory. It is something I have not introduced yet. I've introduced a lot, talked about a lot, but I wanted to learn more myself, of course, always, and really wanted my community to know. But one of the main reasons, like I said, is that you talk about boundaries in a different way.
Speaker 1:There was a watershed book, oh Moons Ago by Cloud and Townsend and you write about that throughout this series that they wrote, cloud and Townsend, the Boundaries Series, which is now a movement. They acknowledge the inner work that accompanies setting healthy external boundaries with others. A chapter called Resistance to Boundaries in their original book gives some examples of internal boundary issues. So that's a lean in for everybody here. We're talking more today about the boundaries inside of us that we can have. You're going to give us a permission slip. I'm so excited I need this. And there are these internal boundary issues that are important to address Angry reactions, guilt messages, unresolved grief and loss, fear of anger and fear of the unknown. So Allison here from the get-go. Just help me, help us understand a little bit more about this idea of setting boundaries with overwhelming parts of yourself and then, if you want to lead into what spirit-led self-leadership is all about, this is pivotal.
Speaker 3:That's a great set. You perfectly set up where we are Cause, as you said we do, our book kind of zooms in on that internal work. So when you know, you know you say, oh, I need to set boundaries. But almost always, inevitably, there's this internal feeling of guilt I'm going to be a mean person, there's a lot of thoughts attached to it, or I don't want to make anybody mad, I don't want to hurt anybody. So we have what in the IFS model, as you touched on, it's a model of therapy, what we call parts, parts of us that have been sort of nature and nurture.
Speaker 3:If you think of the Enneagram you and I talked a little bit about this already where, if you're an Enneagram too, you might have a real strong helper part, right. So you're going to have a lot and that's also been conditioned throughout your childhood your parents probably. You've been rewarded for these. This is the way you learn to cope in the world. So you might have a part of you that is really fearful of hurting somebody. Or let's say you have a part of you that gets really angry, and so you know, let's say you're someone who you're fearful of setting boundaries because you couldn't come on too strong, or maybe you're a worrier and so you're just constantly overthinking should I, should I not? Should I, should I not Right? These are all attached to parts of us, and so the work of spirit-led self-leadership is to learn to differentiate and blend from these various parts of us they're parts of who we are, they're not all of who we are and lead ourselves.
Speaker 3:So, instead of just giving over to that initial feeling of guilt oh, I could never do that we talk about pausing and getting curious. Wait a minute. I wonder why I feel like I could never do that. Well, what is that about? What is that fear about?
Speaker 3:And as you take that pause and you get curious about that initial feeling, you may well realize oh, that's a belief I've held from long, long ago. That doesn't apply to this situation. And then you're able to develop the inner reserves, to be gentle with yourself, say oh, you know what that initial feeling isn't actually. It's valid. It's there for a reason. I don't have to beat myself up for having it, but I also don't have to act out of it. I have a choice. I have other options here of ways to approach setting this boundary. So that's kind of where we zoom in is doing work with those first kind of in, those pathways that just blaze right to those initial emotions. That often are survival skills, they're coping strategies, they're hardwired into us but aren't necessarily the best place from which to respond to a tricky situation.
Speaker 1:I'm going to sigh a lot, I just know it. You said so many things there. One that I really want to hone in here, because even this week, in sessions with clients, even this morning, even this morning, a wee hour ago, it's like, oh, I can choose for myself. Wait a minute, what is the self? That, especially within? This is why I love your integration of faith and psychology, and theology as well, is so often I know that. I know I was schooled in the school of theology that self is bad. You know Jesus, others, you joy, and I know you're familiar with this conversation. But help me, help us understand that it's okay, Like number one, I have parts and it's okay that I can think for myself, I can choose myself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, does that make sense Absolutely? Well, the problem with the way that and it's really a modern phenomena, this isn't the way you know, traditionally and historically in church leadership, uh, thinkers understood, you know, back to augustine, back to paul, back to um calvin. One of the first, the first sentences in calvin'sutes is you know, knowledge of God and knowledge of self cannot be separated, right, and that's from you know hundreds of years ago. So this is sort of a modern phenomenon that we have this idea that self is bad, that we sort of bypass the self. Well, god created us, he made us human flesh. The self, you can think about it in different ways, but it's really, it's the image of God in us, it's the place where the Holy Spirit comes to reside. It's our unique, you know, personhood and God wants us to live into the fullness of what that is and we are in a relationship with God.
Speaker 3:Well, if you're in a relationship, that implies that there's two people involved and you are one of those people, right? So I always say to people it's not God isn't a dictator, you know, we, we, we have an active role to play, and the way that we do that is through really getting to know this person. That is me. That God made, and you know that when Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, you know, love God, love your neighbor as yourself. There's three, again, three relationships are God, neighbor and self. And and I don't see a hierarchy there, maybe you know, maybe God is obviously, you know, the ultimate. God interweaves through all of it, right, but when it comes to neighbor and self, they really are related. I love my neighbor as I love myself. That's a, that's an, that's a reality. That is the the. The more I know and understand and care for myself, the more I will be better equipped to care and know and understand others. Those things just go hand in hand.
Speaker 3:So I think that dichotomy, that is really just that it's modern and it's really not helpful. And so that was one of the reasons we felt passionate about writing this book, because this whole model presumes this idea of a self, that there's a core inside of you that isn't Christian per se. In the world of psychology, we were like, oh my gosh, they're getting at this spiritual center that Christians know to be this. You know, there's so many different ways, we have to talk about it, but we landed on the spirit led self. You know where you can hold the different emotions that you have and the different feelings that you have and the different impulses that you have, without necessarily acting on them, but just being present with yourself. So it's really a lovely kind of I look at it trying to reintroduce that into our spiritual lives as Christians. Trying to reintroduce that into our spiritual lives as Christians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, and it's all about what you're speaking to. What I love, love, love about it is that self can be our leader. Yeah, you know, and I think that's I probably can't even put words to the wrestling that I've done in my own life and then in my work with that. You know, we sit in a church, we listen to leaders and then we follow the leader and we we lose at least I did. Maybe I never even knew my true self, but I feel like there's a loss that I'm even allowed to have a self. You know that I have to follow the leader, and the leader is not my Jesus per se, it's not God, and for me, the integration point that you helped me find was that I can trust my leader. I call that person a knower, but you call that a self-led leadership.
Speaker 1:Spirit led, you know it's like yeah right, like I can trust that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we need to. We're not doing anybody any favors as a church by encouraging especially women, to be honest, because what I find is that men are in our, in our culture, historically have been raised to, they instinctively trust themselves and they're reinforced for that, whereas as women, we sort of are taught to trust other people. And so it's almost like for you know, sometimes I think of some of my colleagues. We talk about how their work with men is learning how to trust other people and letting other people in, and this is too easy and it's not true. You know, there's always exceptions, but for women it's.
Speaker 3:We know how to look to other people, it's what does it mean to look inside and trust our own inner wisdom, what, what God has given us uniquely? So we, you know, in the book we go through the famous Jeremiah passage that a lot of people have quoted the heart is deceitful and wicked. That, you know, is used as evidence that we can't trust ourselves and talk about how. Actually, you know, jeremiah is actually the very same prophet who later says you know, god is going to write his law on your heart, meaning that you know the old Testament law was external, but with the coming of Jesus and the Holy spirit, god actually is now written on our hearts, and the heart being the core or the center of your being. And so we have to start looking inward and I always like to say you know, the theology part of me comes out and says I absolutely believe in the both and I believe in a God who is out there, who is fully other and transcendent, and the God who is imminent, the God who comes to live within through the power of the spirit.
Speaker 3:They're both important and but we don't emphasize often that internal work of tapping in to like, as you're saying, our own self. You know, when you talk about sitting in church and and we're supposed to follow out there, well, well, it's a relationship, right. So what's going on? And to get back to these parts, what's going on inside of me in response to where this person wants to take me? Because I get a say. I get a say in that right, that's it right there.
Speaker 1:That's where I see the huge disconnect, particularly in women. And I'm, you know, in my seventh decade, so a little more elderly than you, you know, but it's like in my realm of women who've been raised in a very different theology in many ways, is that, wow, I get a say, you know, because I know myself as a child in the alcoholic home and that trauma base is, I didn't get a say so then, many of my community have suffered trauma. I do a lot of trauma work and so there is this parallel that you just take it into, you know the church sense or the, the God, my relationship with God, right, and I, I, for eons, for decades, you know, and I, I mean, I hear this all the time. So I know I'm not alone and I'm so glad your voice is here, because it's such a clear voice and it's such a wise voice to empower women that, yes, yes, it's almost like 1920. You have a vote, yeah, it's like I have a vote, yeah.
Speaker 1:I have a voice, you get a say, yeah, I get a say in this, and God wants you to have a say.
Speaker 3:He gave you a voice. That voice is of God, right. So that's and I really appreciate the work that you do, because so much of my work is what I see going on as sort of women. You know, my generation sort of, we're sort of in in the middle, we sort of got a little bit of this, we're sort of wrestling with it. The younger generation it's almost an over-correction of it's only my voice, yes, Only my voice matters. And then you've got you know sort of the grandmothers and mothers of adult who are just like, wow, I didn't realize I could have a voice. So, as women, we're all kind of working this out. And then we're trying to work, you know think of Mother's Day trying to working it out in relationship to each other. So it's such an important conversation to have and such important work that you're doing Because we do. I always try to say it's not me only, it's just me too. I also get a voice right, I also get a seat at a table.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think the over-correction piece. Thank you for saying that that's why I love. I mean that is because I have 220. No piece, thank you for saying that that's why I love. I mean that is because I have two 20. No, no, I don't. Oh my gosh. Now I have two 30 year old daughters, you know, in their thirties. That's crazy. I can't even believe I'm saying that and a son who's I have twins, like I said, so, yeah, they're like more mom. Why are you asking dad for permission? Yeah, it's your body.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you, go get the work, the health whatever you know it's like why do you have to ask dad if you can take a trip? Yeah, it's just, I'm like, oh, you know? Um, well, because we're a team, you know, and they understand, and they have beautiful relationships with their husbands and their, but it's a different, it's very different. You know, they think for themselves and I'm so proud of that, you know, I'm proud that they know that they have a voice and in my community Stronger Everyday Community we equate voice with value. So when you know you have value, worth and dignity, you really you're. I couldn't have a voice because I didn't even know who I was.
Speaker 3:That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:And I certainly didn't believe I had value, worth and dignity. So we work a whole lot and it's a big part of my new book is about that. It's about finding your value so you can know your voice. That's right, yeah, that's exactly right. And then you can speak up, which now adding your work into it. That's why I love to learn, I just. That's why we need your voice, we need all of our voices, because you're bringing into this this Christian, as I've heard you share you. The internal family system modality is, or theory is not per se Christian or non, but you and Kimberly Kim, your co-author, have authored it in the sense of bringing the spiritual framework to it and that's why it was important to you and I love that. Let me read what Richard Swartz can I read it? Sure, love what. Richard C Swartz, the developer of the internal family systems model of psychotherapy that's its full name. He wrote this about your work and it just made me smile. I mean, how great is that? How great is it?
Speaker 1:to have someone who developed a model.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's a gracious man. Yeah, we were very grateful.
Speaker 1:Gracious. Is there a spirit led self within you that emanates love and can lead your inner and outer life? Is it possible to love your inner enemies in the same way that Jesus extolled you to love your outer ones? In this beautifully written book, cook and Miller not only show you how to do that, but also make a strong case that doing so creates enormous inner transformation and peace. That's her goal Turning former enemies into valuable allies. And these are inside of us. Right, these are inner enemies. I am thrilled with the way they have translated my work for a Christian audience and believe this book is an extremely important contribution to our culture's healing, and I would add, to our Christian culture's healing. Oh my gosh, do we need this pounding the table.
Speaker 1:So is that how you came to like if you could just give us a little bit more about internal family systems? You've shared a lot already, but the parts. But what else about it has led you to help us with our inner boundaries?
Speaker 3:Well, so there's three categories of parts in the model and this can be helpful to folks just to understand. So you've got and I love it that it's sort of Trinitarian right. We're sort of made in the image of God and exactly, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Richard Schwartz wasn't a. You know, the developer of this again is not himself a Christian, but you know, just when you read it you just realize he stumbled upon something that really reflects the Gospels. So there's these three categories of parts and it really makes sense when you think about it. We all have these manager parts and these are the parts of us that want to prevent pain. They want to prevent us from making fools of ourselves. They're the parts of us that get out of bed, show up for work, produce, please, perform, achieve, worry, plan, plot all the things peacemake. And there's value in these parts of us. They can get extreme and that's when they become problematic, but if they're in their healthy, balanced state, they're, they're really valuable parts of us.
Speaker 3:Then the second category these are called firefighters. These are the parts of us that put out, that put out the flames of pain. When there's been pain, escape, avoid. So they're going to grab the bottle of booze. They're going to start scrolling the social media, you know, binge, watch the Netflix shop. You know whatever the things are that you find yourself doing to just shut yourself down, right.
Speaker 3:And we live in a culture where people kind of bounce between the two that you know, it's like go, go, go, please, please, please, work, work, work, shut down. And again, neither of these categories is in their properly healthy, balanced state. The firefighters, actually, we need comfort, we need rest, we need pleasure, right? God created us for those things. So, at their healthy, when we're healthy, when we're leading these parts of us versus the other way around, we're consciously, with conscious self-awareness, saying oh, I've been working hard, I need to do, I need to do something that would really restore me. And when we're leading ourselves, we choose something that's actually going to restore us versus something that's just going to numb the pain and not really help. And then the third category is the most important, not the most important, but it's it's one that needs attention the most, which is are these exiled parts of us and these are the tender, vulnerable parts of us that carry the burdens of pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've got the, you've got the soul. I just wanted to show that for those of you who are listening, who are watching on YouTube because Alison's so kind to to, let us go ahead and tape this. The. The book has this beautiful map, and then the study guide does as well. It's called Map of the Soul. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's in. The exiled parts of us often carry burdens of pain from the past, from when we were young young children even that just got buried because we didn't have the skills to know how to deal with the pain at the time. And so what happens then is these other parts get extreme and are so busy coping and surviving that we never circle back to give these younger, more vulnerable parts of us the care that we need. So a lot of times the road to healing is really getting in touch with those exiled parts, and it can be hard at first, because they're the ones that carry the loneliness or the sadness or the fearfulness or the feelings of unworthiness. They can carry shame burdens, and so we kind of don't want to go there.
Speaker 3:But it's really the key to our healing is to restore those parts of us and bring them into the spirit led leadership, where they receive the care that they need. And then, if you think about it, these are the young parts of us that, when they are healed and unburdened, they become that playfulness that Jesus talked about, just the trusting, tender parts of us that are actually beautiful. They need our protection, but we're actually protecting ourselves in a healthy way instead of avoiding dealing with the hard things. So that's kind of a layout of the map and it's just really beautiful work to kind of get to know your protectors, get to know the way you tend to numb out and then start to get to know these really tender parts of you that many people don't want to face but are actually the keys to your healing and wholeness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love the names. So it reminds me so much. One of the one of the theories that I fell in love with is narrative therapy, and I have talked about that here on the podcast so much because of being a writer, right, being just I don't know, just being who I am, I just love that, that story aspect of it. Well, you're, you're really doing that when cause, a big part of narrative therapy is to name something right, and that's what you're doing here. You're, you're naming, you're saying, oh, these are the managers that I'm, I I need to get to know these managers, I need to get to know the firefighters, I need to find out who these exiled parts of me are, and in that, the most important part of your work is that we're not shaming those parts anymore, and so a huge part of what I help our community do is to shift from shaming to gracing, right To grace, to just get to know them. They're a cast of characters, they live inside of you, you know, and that in and of itself, to me, just makes me take a deep breath.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that inner conflict, yeah, you know like, and and the inner voices, I mean, once again, I just heard, you know, a few days ago, a client say gosh, my mother's just in my head, it's just in my you know, and I just lost my mom in August to COVID at 92. And so this is my first Mother's Day without her, and I do hear her voice, you know, we do, and the mama's voice is the most important voice ever. And so I just think, getting to know and then begin to apply boundaries and the concepts of boundaries to your internal thoughts and feelings. What does that look like then? How do we do that? How do we apply an internal boundary?
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so that's where kind of when I was alluding to this idea of where these parts of us get extreme. We want to work with them to bring them within healthy boundary lines within our soul. We don't want them to go away. So, for example, a pleasing part of us right, yeah, it's a good go-to, there's good in that right, it's not all bad. It is nice to be a kind person, it is nice to want to help others in need, but when they get extreme, we're pleasing needs that aren't ours to meet, and so we want to bring that part back within healthy boundary lines.
Speaker 3:And so a lot of what we lay out in the book is this process of getting curious about it, almost like you would a young child. It's like parenting your child. You know you're, you know you see these qualities in your child and you're like you know that can be a good quality, but it can also really get you in trouble, and so we need to talk about it and we need to help you understand how to set a gentle boundary with yourself. What you know, you know, let's say, you've got a kid who loves it, loves school, and it's constantly, you know, talking on class. You know how are you going to pause and just wait to speak out? Because that, that inquisitiveness is great, but, but you're also going to annoy the teacher, right? So you know, but, and you don't want to shame the child, so you're kind of trying to help them learn these strategies. For, okay, just when you want to raise that, you know, when you want to speak out, just just pause for 30 seconds and just wait. You know, you're teaching yourself this parts of yourself in the same way that you might teach a young child, right, just to learn how to exist within proper, healthy boundary lines, as opposed to just kind of driving you and it's just such.
Speaker 3:It's really gets at the fruit of the spirit of self-control, right, but instead of, you know, a lot of times when we talk about self, we think about self-control. It's like I just got to control it. I got to shut it down, you know, I got to beat myself up. It's a compassionate way of saying this is a good part of me. It's there for a reason. God made it. It's gotten extreme and so I've got to learn how to rein it in, get it out, you know, be able to so that I'm leading myself. Okay, I've got that instinct to please. I don't actually have to please. Again, we talk about the 30 second pause.
Speaker 3:My coauthor- is a, she's a reformer, and so she'll talk about how you know she'll wait 30,. She'll give herself I can't remember if she says like a day or you know 30 seconds or something before she offers a critique right or an idea for how to improve something. You know, she just has learned to train herself and it's not that she's shaming herself, she's just learning to bring that within healthy boundary lines.
Speaker 1:Oh, alison, that's just so brilliant. We could have another whole session on the Enneagram work right. Yeah, I'm married to a one and so he and I once we began to understand who we were. I'm a social two, he's a one self-prez, you know, it's like wow, what a difference that makes in a relationship and what it makes it makes such a huge difference in understanding yourself. So what I keep hearing you say is just such a beautiful message of self-compassion towards yourself and offering yourself grace. You know, I just want listeners please lean in heart lifters here. You know, take a step here, take a step back and hear what Alison is saying, because what I hear you saying is you're actually telling us to care for our soul, and I believe that is another. Without being critical or judgmental, you know, just it is another deficit. It's getting better. I do think there's a lot of teaching coming out, a lot of beautiful voices coming out on contemplative practices, centering, prayer, all the beautiful things that we can care for our soul. I also just want to inform everyone that Allison and Kim I think you call her Kim Kimberly, the other author you have such a great offering in this book and it's the internal boundaries quiz.
Speaker 1:I took it and it was. It was tough. It was close to home. I was like I got some work to do. I got some more work to do.
Speaker 1:This is fun, but you know, you look at your emotions and you go are they too close or are they too far? So I love that you're always offering like I'm a repressor, so you know mine are going to be too far. I got to bring them close. Oh man, all the things you're saying. So that's on page 13,. When you get the book and you get it on Kindle right away, you don't have to wait for one to come. But I want you to take that quiz and I think we'll probably revisit this in a later podcast with just me and the gang, and we'll talk about our internal boundaries quiz, and then we just have to. You have to talk to me. This is so brilliant. Where's my big picture? You, you came up with this U-turn Y-O-U hyphen turn taking a U-turn Allison. This is brilliant. I mean, this is so good. Is this I? I? I should know the answer to this. But is this a part of internal family systems or is this all?
Speaker 3:I should know the answer to this but is this a part of internal family systems or is this all? Yeah, we adapted it.
Speaker 3:So they call it yeah, and Dick Schwartz, I believe I think uses a U like a U-turn that you'd take on the road, kind of the idea being you just, and then we started thinking about, oh it's actually you're turning back to yourself. And we use the passage of scripture where Jesus says you know, before judging, you know, take the plank out of your own eye. It's this idea of self-examination first, so that we kind of added that you and then the steps in, in if you actually go through, if you're a therapist and you go through IFS training. There's a ton of steps. It's very complicated, involved process. So we just for the sake of kind of translating it, simplified it to these five key steps Would you mind going through those Sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure you know them internally, but sometimes I forget. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then that's what the map is. So you know, for example, if you're noticing an extreme emotion, you know you're super angry and you can't figure out why. So you take a U, it's a Q, take a U-turn. Let's get to know it right. And so the first step is to focus, which means to focus on the emotion.
Speaker 3:Now, that seems counterintuitive to people because they're like why would I want to focus on my anger? But the idea is that when you focus on something, you bring it into view and if you think about it, then you have to have some healthy distance from it. If you can see it, it's not overtaking you. And actually a lot of folks will say, well, I'm just angry, all of me is angry. And and actually you know, as a therapist, what you're trying to do is help people see, you know it's a part of you, it feels like all of you. But who you are at your core, whether it's depression, whether it's sadness, whether it's anger, whether it's envy, is not that that's a part of you that has kind of hijacked the system? Yes, so you're trying to. When you focus on something, you are able. It's a, it's a, it's a great first step towards self-awareness of going oh it it, if I can name it, as you said, name it, I can get a little distance from it. So that's kind of just.
Speaker 1:The first step is the beginning to name, this process of naming, focusing, yeah, and I like to add here, like I, like a couple of weeks ago and I talked about this on the podcast my mom's birthday was the first birthday without her. I went out, you know, I just got really sad over the weekend, which was a few days later, and I was like, where is the sadness coming from? Like this is weird. Coming from Like this is weird. And I was by myself, but I just encouraged everyone, my heart lifters, to just say, well hi, sadness. There you are.
Speaker 1:Okay, I would have tried to repress that before or avoid it or busy myself, as you were alluding to before, but instead I said oh, and it was first time I'd really ever like taken this and it was just like, oh hi, hey, how are you? Come on in and have a seat. And I took out some grounding tools that I use and I just said, oh hi, sadness, you know. So I love that you are bringing like this to a U-turn. It's like adding more to it today. Thank you, everyone thanking you right now. So focus on it, right, yeah.
Speaker 3:I love that. I love that idea of oh hello, there you are, and I'll sort of, yeah, we don't need to be a fearful of these emotions, we don't need to. You kind of learn and the and as you do more and more of that, these, you learn to trust. This is the process of trusting yourself, right, you learn to, um, to not be so freaked out or hard on yourself when these emotions show up. So the second one is kind of also, you're alluding to befriending, right, oh, yes, right, sort of like welcoming, and the idea is, again, you're extending, you know some people befriending, especially with emotions like anger. It's like how do I really befriend that? The idea really is.
Speaker 3:The other word that we'll use is get curious. So the idea is just not to be self-condemning as you engage that emotion, because it is there for a reason and we don't change in the context of criticism. Yeah, so this is where we're trying to imply that you know it feels like an enemy, but Jesus said to love our enemies. So what would it be like to love this part of me and be kind to this part of me right now? That is feeling all these emotions. So that's the befriend. And then, third, inviting God to draw near. And again, just this idea of instead of sometimes we feel like, okay, I got to get rid of all this stuff to go to God in prayer, it's just inviting God into the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Just saying here just for a second. Alluded to it before. Um, I feel like this, this step right here, or even the befriending step a new word to this community is also been spiritual, bypassing and bypassing. Would you mind taking a little U-turn right here? Yeah, just share your wisdom on um how that can be damaging actually, or how it could be hindrance maybe. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, yeah, you're right, and this is this is a good place to talk about it, because it isn't a process of saying, okay, now I noticed the anger. Spiritual bypassing would be God, take it away. You know, take it somewhere magically to the sky, which is sort of the pray it away. It's not that, it's it's inviting God in and it's saying God, I'm angry, help me understand the anger. It's a very different. That's emotional health.
Speaker 3:That's a process of you gave me these emotions and I'm trying to understand what it means that I'm angry and maybe this other person did a terrible thing to me. But you know, a lot of times when we're, a lot of times we're like I feel like it's an overreaction, what is going on inside of me. So it's a process of bringing God into that experience of self inquiry, versus a lot of what we get taught, which is the spiritual bypassing thing of you know, god, just take it away. You know, or, or yeah, wave a magic wand or I'll just say a scripture over it and it's like it's, it's a bypass, it bypasses the the important information that that emotion has to give us, and that's, you know, these emotions are what we call in IFS, we call trailheads.
Speaker 3:They're, they're signposts that there's a trail to follow to deeper self-discovery. And so that's. And God wants to go with us on that journey, not not take a pluck us up out of that journey.
Speaker 1:I just thank you. Thank you so much because it's so critical and I feel like you, you're, you are hijacking as another word. You know you're like hijacking but you're bypassing something that actually will lead you to the freedom you actually are desiring. Yeah, and instead of shaming or like saying, if I just read, this is what I, I mean I hear these things, these are not made up. I just I stopped having my devotional time in the morning. You know I'm not reading the scripture enough, Right? I mean I know people that have read our beautiful people. They've read the word you know, inside and out. I mean I'm a walk with Jesus 40 years. You know, I know the word inside out, but I never understood, I never integrate. I was never taught, I guess, to integrate like what you're bringing to us, the faith and the psychology.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so that's the other extreme, so we can spiritually bypass, and then that we burn out because we're not actually healing our emotions and we just end up frustrated with God. And then you go to the other extreme and say, well, I'm not, just not going to read my Bible or pray at all, and that's not what we're after either. Right, that's again the over-correction. And what we're after is this integrated, being a whole person, acknowledging all these different parts of us and all these different ways that God made us, and bringing God into that process. So at that point you might, you know, sometimes I will, you know the next step is to unburden and integrate. But really these first three are kind of the key ones. You know, at that point I might say, man, I can't figure out what's going on with me, I don't know why I'm so angry, and so I might even pray for that part of me. But again, it's very different. I might say, god, this part of me is angry and you see this, these prayers in the Psalms, what, what help me understand.
Speaker 1:Why am I so disheartened?
Speaker 3:Yes, that's such a different prayer from God forgive me and take it away. And it's not to say that we shouldn't ask for forgiveness, but it's. It's. You know, it's a really a seeking to understand type of prayer. We can also say or, you know, while I'm in pain and I'm struggling so much, you know, lord, help these parts of me again getting at the boundaries. You know we, you talk about when someone's grieving, let's talk about grief. You know you still need to show up for your job, right? So instead of sometimes, you know, instead of exiling that grief, you say you know, lord, help me find a place inside where that grief can sort of live, without just taking over all of you know, so I can still show, so I can show up and be with you, and there's also a part of me that's carrying grief. We're very multifaceted, you know, people, we can do this. We don't give ourselves enough credit?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't, and I think that speaks clearly. I mean, I've been doing it for months, since my mother passed, you know. It's like okay how do I?
Speaker 1:how do I grieve? I don't even know what I'm grieving. I knew it would be complicated grief, because I had a complicated relationship with it, you know. So, okay, today I'm very overwhelmed, you know. So I'm just going to carry this overwhelming feeling with me. But I think the beauty of the journey that you're sharing is really the journey of emotional what I would say health and emotional maturity. It's as you say so distinctly in the book, it's not letting your emotions control you. Yeah, you control your emotions. Get to know them well. Yeah, you know, I think they are they're, they're our foes when we keep them too far. That's right, we are afraid of them. Yeah, you know, what did they say, alison? I mean, I've read this. I've never gotten to the source, but over 34,000 emotions is what we particularly have. I mean that wheel of emotion, the clutch and all that you know. So I mean, man, what a game changer that was for me personally and then in my work with others. You know that. You know it's just anger Now, unbridled anger. Different story, that's right.
Speaker 1:But even unbridled anger in the midst of the damaging tornado of that. Bridled anger in the midst of the damaging tornado of that. What the heck? Where's this coming from? Yeah, oh, hello tornado. Yeah, you know, it's just. I love how you encourage us to befriend them and to invite God into the meeting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly I love that, that's great. I just I say welcome God into the wise. That's what I say. Just welcome them in. You know, it made sense to me years ago when I was in a tough spot and it was like God, I'm just going to welcome you into this hot mess Cause I don't know what to do. Woo, help me, help me. So then I just love, how do we then unburden? I think we've kind of already said it, but just yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's a process of unburdening when you actually are doing IFS therapy. That's very involved and and I you know I don't really encourage that necessarily, especially when there's deep trauma to be done by yourself.
Speaker 3:But, in the book. What we talk about is just this idea of when you, when you get to the root, you get to that vulnerable part of you that's been carrying the burden, usually from the past, usually meaning we've made from an event as a child that was too complicated for us to understand. So our, my parents, you know, let's say this isn't my, my story, but let's say your parents got divorced and as a child you know, you, you, you, you took on a burden of shame. Oh, I wasn't worth there, there, Right, and it's not true.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's not what is that? But, but it's a burden. When you get to that, there's this release of that burden and, to use your word of narrative, replacing that with a oh I you know. Oh, you know. It's just such a beautiful feeling when those young parts of you um sense the power of the Holy spirit, the spirit itself, and just realize, oh, I, I, it wasn't because of me, and you replace the, the, the lie with the truth. Really is what you're doing, yeah, and it's very powerful, um, there's a lightness that comes um, and then the integration pieces. Then that part of you is freed to live within your soul, live within your system. More free it that all that energy that had been wrapped up in shame is now free to. Like I said often, these are playful parts, these are joyful parts Skipping and hoping again.
Speaker 1:I remember the day I skipped out of church. I was like what did I just do? Yeah, you're free, yeah, I couldn't, it just came. It's like the wholeness, the healing, it just came and I want everyone listening to come home to that. I agree, you know, I know, you do, I know you do and then integrate. So just the closure of the back to the U-turn is where we how do we integrate them? This is the yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's you kind of just touched on it. It's where that that then you have access to those resources now in new ways and also, as there's more less shame and there's less of that, those kinds of painful memories, these protective parts, also get to be reintegrated in more helpful ways. So, instead of the part of you always being like I have to please other people because I'm not worthy of love, all of a sudden, oh, I am worthy of love. So now all that energy that you were putting into pleasing other people, that part of you can be redirected to go. Oh, you know, how can I start a ministry? That I is actually something that's coming from deep inside of me. It's not about pleasing everybody else, but it's really going to help people actually that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, my goodness, it's so perplexing and freeing and all above.
Speaker 1:It just brings so much freedom and so much joy. Okay, I want to ask you I know we're coming to the close, I have a million other things, but oh well, but you talked about something. It's on page 39. If you have the book already and or if you're getting the book, or if you got it on Kindle, 39, you write about baptized imagination. You write about baptized imagination. I'm smiling so big because I can't wait to dig into that with in my heart journal myself. I just can't. It's new to me and I've been trying to teach on imagination and several other guests have spoken about imagination. But when I heard baptized imagination I was like, oh, this it. You talk about how this is an integral component of spiritual growth and formation. Oh my gosh, allison, teach us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, it's a term we got from CS Lewis, and if you think about a baptized imagination, I can't think of a better example. If you think about the Narnia tells, right, that was all his imaginary world, creating a beautiful narrative that helps us understand God better, and so that's where we got the term. And when you're doing this work, the idea of imagination kind of lives more in the right creative brain versus the thinking brain, and often we're trying to approach ourselves from that thinking brain, and this is another thing we've learned in modern Christianity. It's like thoughts, facts, feelings, right, so right. And this is another thing we've learned in modern Christianity. It's like thoughts, facts, feelings, right, so right.
Speaker 3:The problem is, is that what we, we it's? There's actually not a hierarchy, both are important and we're always trying to talk ourselves into feeling a different way. It doesn't work when we're able to imagine these parts of us. You know, it's, it's, you know. When you kind of you know, you kind of do the guided meditation one of my free downloads is a prayer, guided prayer you can kind of imagine what does that angry part of you look like, what is it? You know, and you get. You get these amazing kind of you know, not everybody, it doesn't, it doesn't happen for everybody, but most of us, kind of the creative part of our brain kicks in and sort of is like you know, it feels like this, you know this and and you really get a sense of, oh yeah, that and there's. What's happening is both you're gaining understanding, but also more of your brain is firing, literally You've got your right brain linking over.
Speaker 3:You're not just making sense of it analytically, you're actually accessing some other part of your brain and all of the trauma work is showing that a lot of that is where the synapses, you know, in the neural pathways allow more change. Real deep, real deep paranoia. Correct. Exactly, yeah, it's the knowing you know, the deeper knowing, versus just the head knowledge, although it's all kind of in our system and that's integration though.
Speaker 1:You're asking your clients and your readers and all of us here to integrate this beautiful mind and brain, both sides, that God created, and I think that's what it's. William Paul Young, the shack right now, whatever. Or you know, CS Lewis oh good Lord, have mercy. Tolkien, oh my gosh, All of these brilliant baptized imaginations, I think we have such a that we I've used this word a lot today deficits, you know, but I am asking God, you know, to give me now more increased baptized imagination.
Speaker 1:And you know my agent years ago, my literary agent was like if you could just write therapy in fiction you know people would get it probably, and I'm like man, I'm, that's a great goal, that's a great goal.
Speaker 1:And so I just thank you so much for bringing that, that into our conversation again. And I want to encourage, because I know a lot of people that I know a lot of our community, our heart lifters. They feel guilty or they feel woo woo. I know, woo woo, you know, and I'm certified aromatherapy, you know. So I use, uh, therapeutic grade essential oils in healing trauma through the sense of smell. It's a lot like emdr and a lot of other modalities.
Speaker 3:But, boy, when you first present that, it's like well, that's why in the book, we took great pains to go through all the places where the Bible, the Bible, is filled with metaphors and imagery. Jesus uses parables, he tells stories. He rarely answers a question head on, he almost always tells a story meaning. And so that, yeah, that's why we, we, you know, in the book we have all these little like sidebars trying to cause people are like that's weird and it's like, well, no, actually it's. It's, it's really very scriptural, it's, it's the language of some of these things that we can't quite get with our scientific brain, our analytical brain. We need the power of these stories and these images to access a deeper, deeper truth. So, thank you so much for your encouragement. You really. This conversation is really because it's so good.
Speaker 1:It's so good because I think at that moment to Alison, when I see people's imaginations get baptized by the spirit. That's where the weeping starts, where the, the, you can see the pressure fall, you can see the countenance lift. That's the, that's the heart lift I talk about. You know, it's like when you can get to your truest true you and exhale yeah, and that is what boundaries, that's what your book does, that is what boundaries, that's what your book does, and I am going to reread it and reread it, and reread it. I looked because I always say boundaries of the soul, but it's boundaries for your soul, and so I wanted to correct myself there. So, thank you so much. Any parting words for us as we're trying to become baptized in our imagination and and and have these beautiful U-turns in our lives?
Speaker 3:Oh no, I I'm just grateful for your work and and, uh, I it's just such a gift to me that you, you know that these, this offering, meant so much to you. So I really appreciate that we really did try to prayerfully craft it in such a way as to help folks really, you know, dive into this deeper understanding of the self, and it's a powerful journey and I'm just really grateful that I've had this chance to talk with you more about it. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's been an honor and I know everyone listening is so grateful and we will be talking. If you would give me permission, I'd like to talk a little bit more about it on a podcast all by myself, with my community, and get questions and answers and that kind of with them. Because we didn't get to the constellation of parts, we didn't get to the. What are the burdens? You have these three belief burdens, feeling burdens and physical burdens that, oh, my goodness, we're going to have a whole podcast on just those burdens. Good, great. And so where can everyone find you? It'll be in the show notes, but just a quick place.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my website is just my name, alisoncookphdcom, and I have a weekly newsletter I send out every Thursday with just little blog posts. And then I'm on social media again at alisoncookphd and I do a lot of what's been really fun as I've been doing more Q&A and more kind of interaction through that medium, which has been fun because, you know, it's just neat to see people beginning to bring these two things together. You know I'm very grateful I've been a part of that. So, yeah, come join me.
Speaker 1:I have, so I invite everyone else to as well, and be sure to get her newsletter, Cause it is uh, it's uh easy. Is that a nice way? It's digestible, yeah.
Speaker 3:I appreciate that, yeah, digestible, and I can quickly with a practical takeaway. Yeah, I try to make them practical.
Speaker 1:So that's helpful. Yeah, yeah, we're both. I'm very highly practical. I relate to you as the way I relate to you as well. Yeah, thank you so much and everyone, please, please, go out and get your copy and like, if you can't wait, like me, I got it on Kindle right away. So, boundaries for your soul and thank you. Be very blessed and may you, may your ministry, just continue to expand so that so many can be free.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening today. It was great having you here For even more great content and resources. Please join the Stronger, every Day online community at JanelleRiordancom. Always remember you, my friend. Have value, worth and dignity.
