341. What the Book of Job Teaches Us About Trauma, Faith, and Becoming Trusted Listeners

In this episode, we explore how trauma reshapes belief, what the ancient story of Job reveals about suffering, and how to become trusted listeners who create safe spaces instead of offering quick fixes. Dr. Michelle K. Keener, author of Comfort in the Ashes: Explorations in the Book of Job to Support Trauma Survivors, gives practical tools for mothers, mentors, and faith communities. Other ideas shared in this conversation:

• Trauma is defined as overwhelm beyond normal coping
• Retribution theology vs compassionate presence
• trusted listener traits and spiritual bypassing
• liminal space as formative process, not failure
• schema theory and the filing cabinet metaphor
• missed encounters, memory gaps, and safety
• mothering through shame spirals and repair
• church as a safe base, partnering with counseling

Visit Dr. Michelle's website: Michelle Keener

Order Michelle's book: Comfort in the Ashes

Chapters

• 0:00 Mothering for the Ages: Opening Vision
• 2:00 Introducing Michelle and Her Book
• 5:50 Defining Trauma in Plain Language
• 12:20 Why Job: From Paper to Practice
• 18:30 Trusted Listener vs Spiritual Bypass
• 23:30 Retribution Theology and Job’s Friends
• 28:30 Liminal Space and The Power of Process
• 34:00 Wrestling With God Without Losing Faith
• 39:20 Schema Theory: Your Inner Filing Cabinet
• 45:30 Mothering, Shame Spirals, and Reframing
• 50:00 Missed Encounters and Memory Gaps

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:06

As I've listened to the stories of thousands of women of all ages in all kinds of stages through the years, I've kept their stories locked in the vault of my heart. I feel as if they've been walking around with me all through these years. They've bothered me, they've prodded me, and sometimes kept me up at night. Ultimately, they've increased my passion to reframe and reimagine the powerful positions of mother and matriarch within the family system. I'm a problem solver, so I set out to find a way to perhaps change the trajectory of this silent and sad scenario about a dynamic yet untapped source of potential and purpose sitting in our homes and churches. It is time to come to the table, heartlifters, and unleash the power of maternal presence into the world. Welcome to Mothering for the Ages, our 2025 theme here on today's Heartlift. I'm Janelle. I am your guide here on this heartlifting journey. I invite you to grab a pen, a journal, and a cup of something really delicious. May today's conversation give you clarity, courage, and a revived sense of camaraderie. You see, you're not on this journey alone. We are unified as heartlifters and committed to bringing change into the world. One heart at a time. Today, Michelle comes to speak to us from her new book, Comfort in the Ashes, Explorations in the Book of Job to support trauma survivors. She starts from the very beginning of her book with a question. And she gives us a peek into her own story. Being human is an experience. Our beliefs, worldviews, and approaches to life are often shaped by what we have gone through. Good and bad experiences both leave their mark on us and impact how we view ourselves, others, and the world around us. For example, she writes, when I was about five years old, I watched my cousin drink a glass of milk and then immediately throw up. That made such an impression on me. I haven't had a sip of milk since that day. Even though I intellectually know that milk will not make me sick, and even though I bake with milk all the time, I cannot bring myself to drink milk. An experience made a lasting impact on my life and altered how I walk in the world. The circumstances we walk through, the tragedies and joys that fill our lives will have an impact on what we believe and how we live. Our experiences shape our beliefs both for good and for ill. Experience is where the rubber meets the road, and our beliefs are formed, tested, and challenged. Heartlifters, trauma is a foundational part of what we do here, trying to understand what it is, how we can live from a trauma-informed mindset and belief system so that when we encounter other people or even within our own homes and families and inside of our own hearts, to be trauma-informed is one of the things I pound the table for because we need to understand what trauma is and how it informs the stories that we are living currently in. So let's welcome Michelle to the show. And I just can't wait to hear your thoughts and welcome your questions either on Instagram at Janelle Rarden or over on Substack at HeartLift Central. And if you are a Facebooker, which I know many, many of you are, I have relaunched our Today's Heartlift with Janelle podcast private group. So just head to Facebook and type in today's Heartlift with Janelle. And if you're new to the group, just answer a couple questions and I will gladly let you in and we will meet there as well. Everything's integrated, so it should be seamless. Okay, welcome Michelle to the show. Shall we call you Doctor? You earned it. You can if you want to, but Michelle is totally fine. Dr. Michelle. Okay, Michelle. And you have written this book, Comfort in the Ashes. Explorations in the Book of Job, you brave woman, to support trauma survivors. Well, what an interesting, beautiful, perfect book. But child, I can't even imagine the challenge of digging into Job, but you describe it as it was just like so much fun in a sense to find all of this in Job's story. Tell me your journey to this book. Why this book and why now? You've written many, many books. So this is a little bit of a shift, in a sense, from a Bible study to a trade book. But I'm really curious as to what invited you to this book.

SPEAKER_01: 6:16

So it's it's a very personal story, uh, how I ended up here. I was doing my PhD and I was in an Old Testament writings class. So looking at uh the writings books in the Hebrew Bible. So Job, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, those types of books. And um I ended up hitting just a point of tragedy in my own life and going through a very dark season. And I happened to speak to my professor, and I was supposed to be writing a paper on the Psalms. And so I asked her, I said, Hey, I really feel like I need to spend some time in the book of Job. Would it be okay if I changed my topic? And so we talked her through and she asked me, Well, have you ever thought about looking at Job through the lens of trauma? Wow. And I said, No, let me see if that works. And so I did a bunch of research and I started seeing some connections with the text. Oh, yeah. And it started to click for me. And so I wrote that paper, got an A on it. Thank you. Well done. Yeah. And then a few months later, next or a couple semesters later, when it was time to work on my dissertation, I came back to this topic and said, I wonder if there's enough here for a whole dissertation. Sure enough, there was. Oh, I would say. And the same professor who initially suggested it ended up being my supervisor. So she got stuck with the topic for two years as well. So and so when the dissertation, or actually, I was in the process of writing the dissertation, and I started seeing how this could apply to the life of the church and how it can apply to us as individual Christians. And so I tried to incorporate some of that. Yeah. And was told, nope, you can't do this in the dissertation. Right. It's not allowed at all. Okay. Gotta be all academic. Yes. And so once that was done, then I said, now I can do whatever I want. Yes, you can add story. Exactly. And so that's how this book came about. This is sort of the popular, more accessible, less boring version of my dissertation. And my hope was how can we take this and help it um bless and benefit the church?

SPEAKER_00: 8:34

Well, it it has to. There's no way that it couldn't, Michelle, because it's so uh written so in ways that it's easy to swallow, which to write about trauma isn't always that way. And I love how you define trauma and you give several other definitions of trauma. Would you mind giving us your heartfelt understanding of trauma, maybe even from your own personal? I'm so sorry that you experience tragedy. That's never, never something I want to see anyone go through, yet I know that we must. It's a broken world and it visits all of us at different times.

SPEAKER_01: 9:15

So my heartfelt definition of trauma, I love the way you phrased that. That was that was really beautiful. I would say trauma is it's a response to an event and usually an extraordinary event, something out of the norm that overwhelm overwhelms our normal coping capacity. So normally something challenging happens, we step on a Lego, or uh we are in a minor fender bundle. It really hurts. It does really hurt. Mom of a boy here, lots of Legos. Yes, yes. But it's something that we know how to cope with. And we can we can regulate ourselves and we can come back to kind of a baseline operating level. And we can incorporate that story, as painful as the Lego may have been, it just becomes a part of our life and we move on. Trauma isn't like that. Trauma becomes so overwhelming that our body and our brain doesn't know where to put it. And so it remains this sort of ever-present wound. And like when you get a paper cut and you think it's fine, and then you go to wash your dishes, like, oh, that paper cut's not fine. Yeah, it's trauma's the same way. It just comes up when we least expect it and remains that wound in desperate need of healing.

SPEAKER_00: 10:35

Yeah, you describe it in the beginning in a very um palatable. That's the word I was thinking before a few minutes ago. It's very palatable. Uh, in watching, uh, was your cousin, brother, someone who drank milk and then threw up. Oh, my cousin, yes. Your cousin, yes, I thought so. And you couldn't drink milk after that. So I think that, you know, in this world of mental health, emotional health, we describe trauma sometimes as being a little tea, a medium tea, and a big tea. And so that might have been a little tea or perhaps a mild middle tea, a big tea, who knows? But uh, you can cook with milk, you can do anything with milk but drink it. So you were five at the time, right? I think so, yeah. And our our our little neural pathways are forming very strongly during that time. So I'd love that you introduce it in that way, but also because it can it can be something that seems seemingly ridiculous. Like, why would you in your brain go, I'm not drinking milk anymore ever again, because it's gonna make me do that, and nobody wants to throw up. Nobody. So why did you start there? I'm curious, just to give us that palatable understanding of trauma.

SPEAKER_01: 11:56

I think so, just to kind of help, because what we have right now is trauma is a very big buzzword, right? It is, it's it's everywhere, it is everywhere. Sometimes the more we use a word, like on the one hand, there's a positive that we are reintroducing the language of trauma, and we're willing to engage in this conversation, which um I share, I think, a little bit in the book about the history of research of trauma and how it goes up and down, and we talk about it a lot and then it disappears. And so there's something very valuable about being willing to use the language and willing to have these conversations. Now, the challenge to that is the more we use the word, it can lose some of its impact and it can lose some of its its definition.

SPEAKER_00: 12:39

Yeah, you do such a good job. It's like a primer for any person and everyone that follows Christ or anyone, anyone honestly, to understand yes, what trauma really is and to not use it unwisely. I don't think anyone in we're particularly talking to the body of Christ, right? To those of us who follow Jesus and his ways, we have to have an understanding of trauma within uh being a part of a church anymore. Number one, because it is now being unearthed, like you said, the understanding, it's rather new, about 20 years, they say, but you've given us a historical context for that, an arc. We have to understand it so that we can be what you you're calling a trusted listener. Boy, oh boy, did that just jump off the page. You know, what is a trusted listener? And and in that question is just that undercurrent of why I need to know as a human being how do I why do I need to understand trauma so that I can become a trusted listener?

SPEAKER_01: 14:02

That's an that's an excellent question. And I love the way that you framed it within the body of Christ. Yes, that's where we are. Exactly. And and when we are going through trauma or we're going through a season of suffering, and we want to turn to the church for support, for help, for comfort.

SPEAKER_00: 14:21

Yes, comfort in the action as you say exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 14:25

And what happens when the church isn't prepared for that? What happens when a pastor or a church leader doesn't know how to respond as a trusted listener? And what more damage can be done to someone who's already been so wounded? It is so important that we have at the very least, just sort of this baseline understanding. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 14:44

Just what your book gives us, honestly. That's what everybody needs to read. You did it though. You did do it. So it's it's so easy to go, okay, now I get it. I understand what it is. So I have to have put this tool now in my toolbox in order to become that trusted listener. Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 15:02

So And so when we sorry, so when we have someone who's willing to be that trusted listener, it involves I'm going to sit with someone and and receive their story. I'm going to hear their story in a way that is it's non-judgmental. Um, I'm not trying to fix you. I'm not trying to give you all the answers. I just want to sit with you here and be that sounding board for you, be the person that you can talk to. And it might be that you need to say the same story over and over and over again. More than likely. As you're processing trauma, because as you know, trauma is so repetitive.

SPEAKER_00: 15:40

So repetitive, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 15:42

And that's normal. And so we need to be ready for that. And then if we contrast that with someone who is maybe not a trusted listener, that would be someone who comes in and says, Oh, well, you just need to pray more. You just need to let go, let God, right? Or let me give you these three steps you need to do. That's right. And then go away until you're healed.

SPEAKER_00: 16:05

It's spiritual bypassing, which I was raised in the school of spiritual bypassing. Uh, now we have a name for it. I'm so grateful for all these names. You also gave me a name. I'm gonna interject it here for something I didn't know there was a name. Uh, retribution principle. Well, Michelle, I can tell you uh you have been walking now 44 years. So in my 20s, early on when I was a teacher, I had several parents that, you know, the reason that you have these massive headaches is because you have sin in your life. So that's retribution principle, correct? And you bring that into your investigation with Job and Job's friends. So just in case there is someone who has no idea what this retribution principle is, could you just help us understand? Because you you do it well.

SPEAKER_01: 16:58

Absolutely. So one of the things we see in the book of Job is this idea, this retribution principle or retribution theology. And it's the idea that if you do good, then you will get good things. And if you do bad, then you will get bad things.

SPEAKER_02: 17:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 17:16

So for in in what you heard, oh, you have a headache, therefore you must have sinned. And so it's trying to make this one-to-one connection of if there's bad things in your life, it's because you have done something bad. Oh, so stop doing that bad thing, and then you will get good things. And we see that Job's friends are deeply entrenched in this theology. They really are.

SPEAKER_00: 17:41

You get such a beautiful framework that you give us for Job's friends. I love it. I'm gonna read portions of it uh before this airs because you you write it so well. But I have you here right now, so I want to take you. Yeah, that you give us a framework for his friends. And boy, I don't want to be. You know, of course, it's always like, oh, I don't want to be one of Job's friends, but at least they showed up, at least they did come. You know, I've heard both sides of that story, but you bring this retribution principle in. So help us help us learn here.

SPEAKER_01: 18:14

Absolutely. And so, and and first, let's let's be kind and generous to Job's friends, right? They did show up, and they sat in silence in the ashes with him for seven days. They showed that that's beautiful, right? But then Job starts speaking and he starts sharing what he is going through, what he's thinking. And his friends are so scandalized, they're like, Whoa, Job, you you can't talk about God that way, you can't say these things. And so they are coming, they're trying to correct his theology, yeah, and they're bringing it from this place of this retribution principle, which is why they keep telling Job, you're suffering because you sinned. Just say you sinned and everything will be fine. And Job in his integrity says, I didn't. And he knows that what he's suffering isn't fair, he just doesn't understand why it's happening. Right. And so the friends keep coming back to him saying, just just say you're sorry, just admit you did all of these things. And his friends are listing some really terrible things. Yeah, right. You didn't care for the widows and you were starving orphans and you cheated your workers, just admit it. A lot of literature and then yeah, a lot of victim blaming, a lot of victim shaming.

SPEAKER_00: 19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:32

And Job refuses to do it. But his friends are coming from this deeply held belief that that's the way the world works. Yeah. And there are still areas of the church where you see this in operation. Um, I mean, you shared your story. That's deeply rooted in this concept of retribution.

SPEAKER_02: 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:55

You goofed up, and now God is punishing you.

SPEAKER_00: 19:59

Well, I think I lived that way, honestly. I was raised Catholic, love my upbringing as far as my um awareness of God, many benefits. But in school with nuns that were doing what they were only new to do, you know, so strict, so shaming. And I think that entrenched in that theology of Catholicism is do good, get good, do bad, get bad. And it's really hard to overcome that. And what I'm impressed with, with what you were just saying, is it's something I've never, I mean, I've listened to how many thousands of sermons and teachings and taught studies and um is Job sat, you write, Job sat in a liminal space. I am so grateful you wrote that sentence inside of this book because liminal space is also not talked about. So when you write about Job sitting in this liminal space, is that first of all, told you there's so much here. First of all, what is that liminal space he sat in? And second, is that what empowered him? Is that the right word? Is that what made him indignant to their words? Because he's like, I know I didn't do anything wrong, and we know that he didn't. We read that in the very beginning. We get that, we get that information. So is that liminal space connected to what enabled him to be so filled with fortitude? Maybe that's a better better word.

SPEAKER_01: 21:41

I think I think we could make that case. Okay. And so we look at Job's liminal space, which is the space of transition. It's that that um uh limbo, if we want to call it. I like that. Yeah, that's good. He's not where he was, which is where he was wealthy and prospering and he had his family, and he's not where he will be when the trauma is past. He's in the middle of the storm, he's in the middle of processing, and so he's in um this liminal space, which is just such a poetic word, and I love using it.

SPEAKER_00: 22:17

It's beautiful, and it's but it's filled with power, it really is. And I do feel that we will gain I think that's what God is inviting us into is to live more in that liminal space in our practices and in our times of prayer and getting growing our intimacy with God because I think that's I think that's what I see in how you have shaped the story is that Job was enabled, he he received from that space where God exists above the chatter of the world.

unknown: 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:55

Well, and there's also there's something beautiful about the process. Okay, and so often we want to skip the process, we want to hurry up and get to the end, we want to get to the the finish line, we want to get to the result, and we miss everything we have to learn, all the ways we can heal, the ways we can grow if we go through the process, as painful as it is at times. And so, Job, for the bulk of the book, right, for the vast majority of the book, Job is in this liminal space processing and trying to understand his experience. And it's in that process where he his theology starts to change, his outlook starts to change, and then he is prepared for when God shows up in the whirlwind and shares his presence with Job. But it was a process to get there.

SPEAKER_00: 23:52

I just love every little ounce of this because I mean, we think of his boils, we think of his physical calamity, we think, you know, if you I I invite some all of you to just do Alexio Divina, you know, or uh just sit with this book for a day or however long. And how did he not lose it? How did he not go crazy? You know, was it the process? I don't know. I just wonder how when we're in it, because when we're in it, you know, and I have not been in it like Job, of course. I I can't say many of us really have. I've not been shipwrecked like Paul. I've you know, you've had tragedy, I've had tragedy, we understand uh the realm of the agony. Perhaps it's the right way to shape Job's agony. Do you draw something from that that we could perhaps apply to the process to help us not lose it? You know, it's just so natural to lose it or drug it or numb it, or but Job didn't. He sat in that liminal space.

SPEAKER_01: 25:15

He did. And again, I love I love the poetry of your words, the realm of the agony, or the realm of agony, because that's what it is. And and the truth is there's no way out except through it. We can we can turn to those kind of self-medicating ways, be it alcohol or pornography, shopping, you know, pick your your your addiction, but it doesn't change the walk that has to be done to get to healing.

SPEAKER_02: 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:45

So we look at Job and and I love that question, right? How did Job not lose it? Well, I don't know. Job was Job was pretty close at times, he was wanting to sue God in a courtroom. That's that's that's pretty intense. Yeah but I think part of the way or part of what we see in Job is that he just kept wrestling.

SPEAKER_00: 26:08

Yes, he just didn't let go. He didn't stop talking to God. As crazy as it might have sounded, as earth-shattering as it might have sounded, he never stopped talking. He never he just wasn't afraid. Maybe that's why he was so incredibly close to God before this trial was that he he knew God. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_01: 26:36

Like I think my God wouldn't do this to me, you know, and that gets to the heart of what Job is struggling with. Yes, he's in physical pain and emotional pain and and all of that, but at the heart of it, it's like what happened to my relationship with God, right? That's it. That's the what and and as you pointed out in the prologue, we see that God calls Job, this is my servant. And that's not a passing phrase, this is a very powerful and important title that God has given Job. And he doesn't give it to everybody. No, and so we know that there was this closeness, and so now Job is enduring all this and he's saying, I know who God is, and this isn't right. And so he keeps wrestling with it, and instead of um lowering his opinion of God, or instead of capitulating to his friends, he's like, I'm gonna wrestle with this and I'm gonna struggle with this until basically until God shows up. Exactly. Yes. And we still have that ability. I am gonna hold on to you, God, and I am gonna wrestle through this, and I'm gonna cry, and I'm gonna pray, but I am gonna do this until you show up. Until you show up, exactly. And he does.

SPEAKER_00: 27:55

And he's not afraid, what which I loved uh you bringing to the table, is he wasn't afraid to mess with the friend's schemas. Okay. So I wanted so much for you to talk to uh my heartlifters, myself at the front of the line, on this psychological framework of schema theory. I remember when I first learned it, and it was life-changing. And I want it to be life-changing for someone. Let me read this. You say, using the psychological framework of schema theory, S-C-H-E-M-A, trauma expert Judith Herman, don't we love her, suggests that trauma shatters these inner schemas by which people process and understand the world around them. Trauma is so catastrophic, so outside of the norm, that the inner schemas a person has previously relied on are no longer able to explain the experience. There is essentially no way for their mind to fully understand the trauma. Wow. Thank you. I've read so many books, but bringing out this whole schema theory to me is will save people so much agony if they really will understand it and put this tool in their toolbox. So, first of all, if you would define schema and then you do it in such a beautiful way with cabinet file. I love it so much. If you would share that.

SPEAKER_01: 29:33

Okay. Well, we use the filing cabinet metaphor. So when we're looking at what is a schema, a schema is a way that we have developed to look at the world. And it's generally informed by um how we grew up, our early developmental influences, our environment. It shapes the way that we look at the world and the way that we interpret our experiences in the world. Right. Um, it's something that we learn. And and you mentioned earlier about neural pathways. That's a part of it. Our brain loves shortcuts. So if something happens over and over again, our brain will develop a shortcut neural pathway. This happens, this is the consequence. Let's just jump there.

SPEAKER_03: 30:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 30:14

And so we have these inner schemas. And this is how we interpret how we fit in the world and the things that happen to us. Critical. Trauma comes in and says, Nope, none of that's gonna work. And so I use a metaphor of a filing cabinet where the filing cabinet and the files within it function as our inner schemas. And so something happens to us. Um, hey, Michelle's going on a podcast, it's a positive experience. I'm gonna put that in my little file. I'm gonna put it in um, you know, happy memories, I'm gonna put it in made a new friend. That's where it goes. Something traumatic happens though, and our brain looks at it and says, I don't have a file for this. No uh I I just lost my child. We look at it and our our schemas can't can't address it because we don't have a file for it. It's so outside of the realm of our experience, it doesn't even belong in the filing cabinet.

SPEAKER_03: 31:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 31:22

And so it ends up sitting on kind of the desk of our mind, if we can draw this metaphor out, like on our to-do list. And so we keep coming back to it. And every time we go back to it, it's because we're trying to figure out oh, do I know where this goes? No. Do I have a place for it?

SPEAKER_00: 31:39

No issue. And we look at it. Yeah, we know it's in the amygdala. You know, if we know, we know that they're in them, they're invisible, they're subconscious, and you make that point very clear. They are they're not something we're conscious of. Exactly. Our body goes, nope, nope, can't do it.

SPEAKER_01: 31:56

Yep, don't know what to do with it. And so that that it's why we end up with these intrusive thoughts that pop out of nowhere. Why am I thinking about that now? Well, because your brain's trying to help you out. Yeah, it's trying to, if I look at it now, can I resolve it? Can I integrate it? Can I put this somewhere in my life story while it might where it will make sense? Bingo. That doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00: 32:17

You need to rewind that, you guys. Rewind that, listen to it 1200 times because Michelle just nailed it, resolve it, integrate it, right? All of the beautiful things. I love it. Thank you so much. So good. Okay, sorry. We have to resolve them, but it's a it's so overwhelming, it's it's difficult. So these schemas, since I'm really dedicating a lot, most of the conversations this year, to mothering or mothering, how would then uh that our inner schemas, especially if it's traumatic and we have no filing cabinet, we have no uh folder for it? That's gonna affect our mothering, I would think. So maybe some hope for someone listening today. Where would we start? Where would we start to perhaps do some schema therapy therapy?

SPEAKER_01: 33:15

Oh, that's an excellent question. Um, I am a very big fan of mental health counseling. So I am always going to suggest go find a trained professional that can help you process all of this.

SPEAKER_02: 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:28

Um that would always be my first caveat. And um it's definitely time in the church that we embrace what the mental health profession can bring to our church members. So that's the first thing. As for an individual, which is kind of trying to process this, um, I would always say, give yourself a whole lot of grace.

SPEAKER_00: 33:54

So for an individual, working on, first of all, I would think being aware of our inner schemas could perhaps be important. Like what I I've often heard schema defined as a story, the story we tell ourselves. And I always like to say, you know, very often the story we're telling ourselves is not true. And so we I have to identify and become aware, I think, of the stories that we're telling ourselves or the stories that seem to be directing our life, which we would call false narratives and mental health. So I definitely love the idea of going and getting mental health. Obviously, it's what I do and being aware as an individual. But what you're trying to do, I think, Michelle, in comfort in the ashes, is to equip every person, lay person, it's it's really what I do in my work as well. Everybody to have this knowledge and this information and this skill, because it's a skill to be a trusted listener.

SPEAKER_01: 34:54

It really is. And it's something that I think we don't stop and evaluate enough.

SPEAKER_02: 35:02

No.

SPEAKER_01: 35:03

Because for everyone who has who has hearing capacity or sign language capacity, we think, of course I can listen. You're speaking, I hear your voice, of course I'm listening. Exactly. No, you're hearing, right? You're hearing the sound, but listening is different.

SPEAKER_00: 35:21

And very different. Yeah, I love that uh the emphasis on the difference between listening and hearing. It's very different. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 35:29

And and so there's something to be said for um, as you pointed out, being able to identify the stories that we tell ourselves, yeah, and being able to identify some of those shortcuts we are making without thinking about it. So, for example, a mom who's got three kids and is juggling so many different things and maybe forgets um soccer practice and their child is now so upset because they miss soccer practice. And okay, so how does mom react to that? Maybe mom is suddenly filled with shame. Oh, maybe she's a terrible motherfucking I I I forgot about this thing that was so important to my child. Okay, well, let's stop for a second. Why did a an honest mistake, a simple mistake, why did that jump all the way to shame? What's the story behind that? Yeah, where where did that shortcut activate? And why is that shaping you? And so there is this element of let me stop and figure out how how did I get here? Yeah, how did I end up in this feeling of guilt or shame, or I'm a terrible mother, or my children will grow up and never speak to me again? How did you get there? And and is that reasonable?

SPEAKER_00: 36:49

Is is that a reasonable reaction? Oh, that's so good, Michelle. That's such a good question. Everyone listening, first thing you're gonna go, is that reasonable? No, it's not reasonable. That's so good. Come into the prefrontal, right? Come here. Into the prefrontal, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 37:06

Yes, exactly. That's so good. And if we tie that in to trauma, it gives us an opportunity to do the same thing, to stop and say, why am I feeling panicked right now? Why am I feeling this anxiety? And is is it reasonable? Or am I experiencing a very logical, very rational reaction to a trauma I've already experienced? Yes. I think that's and for us in that in that self-compassion, in that grace is to normalize a trauma response is actually a very logical and rational response to an illogical, overwhelming event.

SPEAKER_00: 37:50

Just okay. So rich. It is a rational response. We need to have fight, flight, fight, fawn. We need to have that when we're facing danger. That's the, I think, also the big understanding to bring to the table. You know, if something traumatic has happened to us, our body's protecting us, right? But we don't want to uh repress it or leave it uh in the amygdala. We want to do what you said, resolve it, you know, bring it into uh, like I like to say, make sense of it, you know, bring whatever's in the past into the present long enough to make sense of it. We have to make sense. That's statistically proven. We have to make meaning of what we've gone through in order to make peace with it. And that's what you're equipping us to be able to do, not only individually, but then communally, so that we can become that trusted listener that you are so beautifully training us to become. Before we go, there is so much heartlifters. You really, I you really just have to get Michelle's book, take it as a guide, learn to understand trauma because there's just not one person. I was at the deli. You guys know how I love my deli time. Things just happen in the deli for me. Uh, and this woman comes up and someone said to her, because she knew the clerk, how are you? Well, a litany. I just got out of the back, doctor, and my knees and my hip and this and that and this and that. And, you know, I just thought, what do I say? Do I say anything? But we will always meet people. We will. If they're not in our little sphere, they're gonna be in our center sphere or our larger sphere. Would you talk to us about something that you call a missed encounter? I haven't heard this taught about. I'm really trying to bring lots of beautiful new concepts. I'm gonna read with you right, with ordinary events, we experience them, understand them, and file them away without much thought, which is what you just shared. The traffic jam on the way to work is usually forgotten by lunch. It doesn't linger because we're familiar with the experience and we know where it goes. When we can file the event away, we understand what happened and we process the emotions tied to it. The event has meaning or a place in the big story of our life, the big schema. And we can move on and think about other things. Not so with a trauma-inducing event, the failure of our existing worldview, like Job. Everything was not only physically blown up in his life, everything, everything was blown up in Job's life. Every schema, every belief system, every theological worldview, everything. Such a beautiful story to have in link with trauma. You've done such a good job. The failure of our existing worldview or inner schemas to explain a trauma-inducing event as it occurs creates that gap between the event itself and our filing of the event. And that that becomes a missed encounter. I like how you use that terminology, that that phrase. Can you explain that and why you chose it?

SPEAKER_01: 41:16

Absolutely. So I think I borrowed it from um another scholar, David Garber, uses the phrase missed encounter. But I love it because it really encapsulates that traumatic experience. And there's there's tons of neurology and and and the brain chemistry that explains it. But if we if we put it this way, when we experience an event, one of these overwhelming, out-of-the-ordinary events, and our mind shifts into fight, flight, freeze, fawn mode, we're actually shifting into a different area of the brain.

SPEAKER_02: 41:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:56

And so it's it's the limbic system, the limbic brain that says, Oh, this is an emergency, I'm gonna take over. And it's designed to do that to protect us. And one of the analogies I will use is if we were walking along a pond and an alligator suddenly jumped out at us, we don't have to stop and think, oh, that appears to be an alligator. It has 72 teeth. I should probably run, right? We don't pause. The the brain kick that limbic system kicks in that survival instinct before we have even realized that it's an alligator and we're we're a hundred feet away. And so that's a good thing. And so when we experience this event that is a a or we perceive it as a deeply threatening event, yeah. And that could be physical, but it could be emotional, it could be um psychological, but we experience this event and the survival instinct kicks in and we're we're gone. We're out of there, right? Exactly. Fight, flight, freeze, whatever. And when it does that, it means that the areas of our brain that process our memories, um, the areas of our brain that we think through things, they get um powered down a little bit. I like that analogy, yep. To put all of the the energy to our survival instinct, our survival brain.

unknown: 43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:22

And so when we come out of that experience, some and this is sometimes when you will see someone who's maybe in a car accident or or some other really um overwhelming event, like what happens? Like, I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 43:35

I have no idea what happened.

SPEAKER_01: 43:37

Right. Well, the neurobiology makes perfect sense because the memory processing section of your brain was like, I'm not gonna deal with this. I'm gonna let the I'm gonna let the survival instinct take over. And so that event, this is a very long explanation, I apologize. Very good. That event becomes a missed encounter because we did not experience it, we did not process it, we didn't store the memory as it was happening. And so we have to then go back and deal with it after the fact. Yes, we have to then look backwards and try to understand and try to make meaning from this experience, but it has to be done in the past because we missed it for very good reasons, but we missed it when it was actually occurring.

SPEAKER_00: 44:29

You know, and as I hear you share it so uh so concisely, I think it's almost as if we need to live in an awareness. We need to have this information, uh, know it so well so that we're moving through life now, uh, aware, awakened, going, well, that was really overwhelming. I want to attend to that tomorrow. Or I want to talk to someone, like not repress it, be aware of the process of repression, I guess I'm what I'm what I'm hearing you say, because I it sounds like the it could become a process. I know it has in my own life a practice. It's like I I'm attuned, I'm aware that I'm I'm really messing up if I'm in a conversation with my husband or something and I'm like getting a bad attitude. Because once you start becoming aware and you start having these practices, I can more easily deal with the missed encounter more quickly. That might have been long-winded, but I think it's hopeful that when we have the training that you're offering, uh, this brilliant training, that we will be more apt to be prepared and then more apt to be able to do the necessary work.

SPEAKER_01: 45:54

Not long-winded, beautifully said. And I would add to it um two different elements to that. On the individual level, it opens up a window for us to be kind to ourselves when we recognize it's okay that maybe I don't remember all the details of what happened. Maybe I only remember one image of this terrible event. And that is a normal reaction that makes sense in my brain. Yeah. And so there's an opportunity to be patient and kind to ourselves. And at the same time, it presents a challenge and an opportunity to the trusted listener to recognize this person's story might change each time they tell it as they remember more and more. Really well or as they recognize there's a gap here. I don't remember how I ended up there. I don't remember how I ended up in a dark corner with this man. Yes. Right. And instead of pushing back and saying, Oh, your story changed, you must be making it up. You know, maybe we can then say your story's changing. Are you are you remembering more? What's coming up as you're processing this?

SPEAKER_00: 47:15

And that's because uh this is a big element that we must add, that you do add in the book that I'm forgetting, it is creating the safe space for them. That's what I have witnessed in 13 years of doing this trauma work, the safer someone feels. And the then they feel safe enough even to go back, and that memory might come forward. It's all about safety, it's all about feeling secure because the overwhelming memories are exactly that. And so I think what you're also inciting us to do is to become really safe people. And that starts in our own heart, to be safe in our own heart. I appreciate it so much. Okay, in closing, one last sentence. You write in this middle area, right, with this missed encounter. Let me let me finish reading. In this missed encounter gap, the event sits in the to-do list pile, which you've said, and we keep going back to it. Rambo calls this gap between the event and the understanding the middle. It is in the middle space where the reality of a traumatic event smashes up against a cognitive schema that cannot explain it and result in a crisis of meaning. It is when the rock hits the window, when the event collides with our beliefs, when what we experience crashes into what we know and everything shatters. In this middle area, take note, this is a lean-in moment, heartlifters. Trauma makes us ask questions. Big, big, big questions like Job. The very nature of the conflict between a lived experience and an establishmental schema that cannot explain it leads to a search for another explanation. I just believe it leads to the liminal space that you said. And if we can hold that space, you know, we can be in that space and never stop talking to God. Good, bad, and ugly. Because he can handle all of it. Just keep talking to God. You know, keep talking because friends will show up and and they may not know what to do or say, but we're gonna work on knowing what to do and say, because that's what you're helping us do. Wow. Michelle, were you exhausted after writing this book? It's so amazing, and it just seems like it took quite the journey. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 49:46

It was a journey, but uh I do believe that God was in it, and I'm grateful for it. And uh I'm happy to see people responding to it, and I'm really hopeful that the church will be able to embrace it, and and as you said, that we really become a genuinely safe base for all of our people. And that's really you know, and this is based on Job, but we could have just as easily based it on the life of Jesus.

SPEAKER_02: 50:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 50:15

Because how does Jesus interact with those who are suffering and the way that he meets them where they are, yeah, and then calls us as the church to do the same.

SPEAKER_00: 50:24

So that's that's my big hope. With compassion and with authority, not authoritative, but with authority, he comes, he offers compassion. But you know, I never saw him blame or shame or you know, cause that. So thank you, Michelle. May God expand your territory and give you peace. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening today, Heartlifter. Be sure to hop over to Substack at Heartlift Central, Instagram at JanelleRarden, and if you would be so kind, make a tax-deductible donation to keep this podcast ad-free and spreading its influence all over the world. You can make that donation on my website JanelleRarden.com slash Heartlift International. We are making home and family the safest, most secure place to be.