344. From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work

Dr. Arianna Molloy, author of "Healthy Calling: From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work," shares on "calling burnout" and why it hurts more than standard exhaustion. Regular burnout says, "I don’t like what I’m doing anymore." Calling burnout says, "I don’t know who I am anymore." To find our way back, she offers a practical, research-backed posture of healthy humility: know your strengths and weaknesses without being ruled by either; live as a learner who isn’t threatened by not knowing; and practice the capacity to walk away, rest, and remember you’re not God. This is not self-erasure. It’s a return to sanity, a way to steward gifts without becoming indispensable to them.

We also explore communication as a healing balm for homes and teams. Truthful, kind, and clear messages—spoken, written, and nonverbal—repair trust faster than endless clarification by text. Simple rhythms like visual voice messages, shared gratitude at the table, and sabbath touchpoints keep relationships tender and resilient. Along the way, gratitude emerges as humility in action: a daily reorientation that dissolves cynicism and turns ordinary messes into moments of meaning.

If you’re a mom, leader, creative, or caregiver wondering how to serve without losing yourself, this conversation offers a grounded path forward. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs courage today, and leave a review to help more heartlifters find their way back to the Caller.

Visit Dr. Arianna Molloy's website: Learn More

Order Dr. Arianna's book: Healthy Calling

Watch Dr. Arianna: Meaningful Work; Should You Put Your Phone Down?; What it Means to Walk Humbly With God; More Than Just a Job

Chapters

• 0:00 A New Theme: Mothering For The Ages
• 2:05 Meet Dr. Ariana Maloy
• 4:35 Work, Calling, And Family Legacy
• 9:20 Defining Work Beyond A Paycheck
• 13:45 Marriage, Parenting, And Priorities
• 17:45 Healthy Relationships In Plain Language
• 22:25 Communication As Healing Balm
• 27:10 Caller First, Then Calling
• 31:40 Parenting, Guilt, And Meeting God
• 36:00 Humility: The Surprising Antidote
• 41:35 Three Parts Of True Humility
• 46:10 Gratitude That Reorients The Heart

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:06

As I've listened to the stories of thousands of women of all ages in all kinds of stages through the years, I've kept their stories locked in the vault of my heart. I feel as if they've been walking around with me all through these years. They've bothered me, they've prodded me, and sometimes kept me up at night. Ultimately, they've increased my passion to reframe and reimagine the powerful positions of mother and matriarch within the family system. I'm a problem solver, so I set out to find a way to perhaps change the trajectory of this silent and sad scenario about a dynamic yet untapped source of potential and purpose, sitting in our homes and churches. It is time to come to the table, heartlifters, and unleash the power of maternal presence into the world. Welcome to Mothering for the Ages, our 2025 theme here on today's Heartlift. I'm Janelle. I am your guide here on this heartlifting journey. I invite you to grab a pen, a journal, and a cup of something really delicious. May today's conversation give you clarity, courage, and a revived sense of camaraderie. You see, you're not on this journey alone. We are unified as heartlifters and committed to bringing change into the world. One heart at a time. Oh my goodness. May I contain my enthusiasm? But you know, I just received a word from someone to not tone it down. So welcome to the show. Dr. Ariana, and I did forget to ask, is it Malloy? Maloy, you got it. Malloy, I got it right. So we were so um having so much fun pre-reporting-vibing, yeah. It's because we're in California and I was born there. I love California. Although you did not. You were not born there, and you were transfensive.

SPEAKER_01: 2:28

Well, actually, technically I was born there. Born in Los Angeles and lived there till I was seven. My parents were part of the original vineyard, actually. So John Wilbur. Mm-hmm. John Wimber, yeah, Keith Green, they knew all the people.

SPEAKER_02: 2:42

So my word, you have quite the legacy. No wonder you are incredible.

SPEAKER_01: 2:46

No wonder. Okay. But my heart's home is Seattle. So we moved there when I was seven, and I just feel like my spirit is awakened when there are pine trees and lake and soft sun and you know autumn colors. Those are just my thing.

SPEAKER_03: 3:03

I have never been to Seattle, but it is a goal. It is a goal to go to the Northwest. But so now you are in California. You are a professor at Viola, a university that I really love, as I shared with you. Me too. My son got to play with the Southern California Seahorses PDL Soccer, and uh, you just said your son went to one of their camps. So it's just a full circle. So fun. I loved that season for him. It was a really fun season for him to develop his soccer skills. So uh have fun. I I am an obsessed soccer mom. I had two girls too, so I was a dance mom, I was a piano mama, it was a lot of things, but soccer, I just loved it so much.

SPEAKER_01: 3:46

I very much feel new to the whole world. My son will be six, you know, soon. And and so I'm learning. I'm learning about the culture of being a soccer parent.

SPEAKER_03: 3:56

It's a culture. It is. And we had a good culture. So I'm grateful for that. Well, Dr. Ariana, I will just call you Ariana for the sake of things. You have a new book out, Healthy Calling. From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. And that is quite a mouthful. But as my heartlifters know, I have been saying all through 2024, through my own what I now know as calling burnout. You have given me a name for what I was going through. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And here you are. I am so grateful. In the online college class I teach, uh, one of the questions I ask is if you could, it's one of those main questions, if you could have dinner with anyone in history, who would it be and why? And so now I'm adding you to my list.

SPEAKER_01: 4:51

Oh my gosh. I am.

SPEAKER_03: 4:54

If I could have dinner, lunch, coffee, anything, a walk around Viola with you, I would uh be very, very blessed. You are a wise, wise young woman.

SPEAKER_02: 5:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 5:07

And uh as I said, you are an illuminator, and I'm grateful to have you here. So we will talk about your new book, why this book and why now.

SPEAKER_01: 5:18

Yeah. Well, those are really kind words, and I take them to heart. So I'm truly honored. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 5:24

It's very true.

SPEAKER_01: 5:25

Yeah, you know, I um I feel very passionately that as believers, we should be able to experience freedom in relationship with our caller. And so our caller, who is God, capital C Capital C.

SPEAKER_03: 5:42

I just love that you call him the caller.

SPEAKER_01: 5:45

Yes, he called us into existence, he calls us out of the tomb, he calls us to uh walk on calm waters, he calls us from the trees where we are hiding, he calls us when we are timid, he calls us when we are ashamed, he calls us when we have sinned, and guess what? He is waiting for us on the shores with food, and the only question he wants to know is do you love me? That's our caller. And so when we can operate in that freedom, everything else is aligned. But unfortunately, we get a lot of things that are happening in this very busy and chaotic world. And so I've just I've always been fascinated with work. My parents have talked about work at home at the dinner table since I was a kid. It was never something not talked about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 6:30

Why? Why was that? That's very interesting. Because I know I know what we talked about with our children around the dinner table. And of course, we have a a family of entrepreneurs, we really are. Uh so why did your parents talk about work?

SPEAKER_01: 6:44

I will have to say everything good I know about this world and the love of Jesus is through the modeling of my parents, who are not perfect by any means, but even in the way they approach their imperfections, I learn about the Lord's love and myself. So, and what's really cool is they both came from homes that, you know, um had divorces and moves and challenges. So they they they decided to create the legacy in their marriage, and they did. Um, I think that they are whole person people.

SPEAKER_02: 7:18

So ready for this conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 7:24

I I I guess I grew up with the question every day, how was your day? And the one-word answer was not the answer we gave. It we literally would walk through our day. Well, after breakfast, I talked to so-and-so. And then I was feeling this way when I went to this class. And this was the thing that was on my mind when I met with these people. And they just want to know. I guess, I guess to say we were a storytelling family.

SPEAKER_03: 7:48

Okay, I love this. Thank you. This is my surprise.

SPEAKER_01: 7:52

Storytelling family. When I was younger, I would get out of my chair at dinner and sort of reenact my day. And my parents would delight in it. They never made me feel small or less than simply because I was a child. And so I guess from the moment I can remember um who I was personally and professionally, even though I didn't use the term professional at that age, it mattered. It mattered to my parents, it mattered to me. And of course, they wouldn't talk about deep, hard things when I was a kid, but they would talk about their work and they treated my school time as a job. So I just naturally approached homework as my job. Like that. Play as a kid was work and that was honoring.

SPEAKER_03: 8:42

So I think they taught you the value of holding both the work and the play.

SPEAKER_01: 8:47

You know, as a parent now, I remember reading a book that really stood out to me, which is Whole Brain Child. Oh, yes. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 8:54

Oh my goodness. My daughter, older daughter's reading it currently.

SPEAKER_01: 8:56

Yes. And and so they talk about how, you know, when kids are playing, they're working. So if we interrupt their work, it's not that we can't, but we need to honor that. Hey, I know you're in the middle of building this tower and it's really great. In a few minutes, we're gonna need to go. So I'd encourage you to find a stopping point rather than okay, time to go. It's just not an honoring of the work that we're doing.

SPEAKER_03: 9:16

Oh, that's brilliant. Everyone, listen, please. Every mama listening, listen, there were so many nuggets in there. Number one, you ate together, you ate dinner together. Okay, so there was a gathering time of community. So they're treating their family as the first foremost important community.

SPEAKER_01: 9:34

Yeah, and probably at the very beginning of our conversation, we should talk about when we're talking about calling.

SPEAKER_03: 9:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 9:40

Um, primary calling is to love God and love others. We're all called to that. As believers, we know that call. We identify the shepherd. He says, My sheep hear my voice, right? And so, so uh we are all called to love God and love others. How we love God is by how we love others. When we love others, we are loving God well. So that's the thing. But there are also specific things in our life, specific places in our life, relationally, occupationally, in service, that when we do them, it ignites our particular skill sets and our particular passions in such a way that it feels delicious. I mean, not all the time, but like 80% of the time, you're like, this is awesome. This is my sweet spot. So my area of calling research is work as a calling. And it can be paid or unpaid. So when I'm talking about work, I'm talking about any focused endeavor that we use our mental, emotional, physical selves for.

SPEAKER_03: 10:37

Would you please say that one more time? Because you one thing I love about you, Ariana, immediately loved in you because I'm a teacher, and I can definitely recognize your teaching calling, your gift to make things understandable. And that I think is the greatest gift. And right now I feel like you're talking to uh all of us, those especially who are my audience that I'm trying to really focus in on this year, are those who mother. We all mother as women. And so if you would just give us that very clear definition of work one more time, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 11:18

And feel free to have me do this at any time because I get so excited. I know I use language that, like, I should unpack more. Work has nothing to do with whether or not you're getting paid for it.

SPEAKER_03: 11:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 11:31

That's a type of paid work is a type of work, it is not just the only work. Work is any focused endeavor in which we bring our physical, mental, and I would say spiritual as well, emotional selves, relational, on a regular basis, relational. So mothering 100%, that's work. And when I say work, I'm not talking about labor. That's a type of work as well. But work is creation, formation, mentorship, development, resting, maintenance, artistic. Um, there are things that we can look at before the fall that God did when He was working to create this world. And that is the kind of work I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_03: 12:20

I just love it so much. I love it, love it, love it. So that is what you feel uh so passionate about as almost an outpouring uh of legacy in a sense, which I really love. Can I ask what kind of work your parents did? Were they church planters?

SPEAKER_01: 12:35

Is that why you were on pastoral staff at the original vineyard until I was about seven? And holy cow. My dad was a speaking pastor, my mom worked with uh, she was then head of the Sunday school, and um, she was a singer. She was a singer. Yeah. And um, but they did feel a shift for lots of different reasons. And so when I was about seven years old, we moved to Seattle, Washington, and they loved working together so much that they started off in real estate and they completed their their paid career life as realtors together. But you know, my mom still had side businesses and taught singing and sang, and my dad, you know, led small groups and worked with first responders as a, you know, volunteer chaplain. And so they still operated in their giftings. But I will say this they chose to prioritize their calling as husband and wife because they felt like that was a calling, and their calling as parents because they felt they felt a bit of that unhealthy pull when they were working in ministry. Yes. And so um, my dad in particular grew up with a phenomenal mom, but he was he didn't have a dad in his life. Okay, and he felt very called to be my dad. And he chills. Yeah. And so I see the sacrifice they made, and I realize, you know, uh my work, my paid work does feel like a calling. And I know that they didn't always get to experience that. So I see that sacrifice.

SPEAKER_03: 13:57

And that sacrifice was for you.

SPEAKER_01: 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 14:00

I understand that, like as a mama of adult children, to see now their uh flow and their uh continuance. So it's it's really let me just say this.

SPEAKER_01: 14:11

When I found out that I was pregnant, we didn't think we could get pregnant. Um, we were told it wasn't possible. So he was a miracle baby. And when we found out, my parents who were living in Seattle said, we're coming. And they moved from Seattle to California because they knew that I felt called to do my work.

SPEAKER_04: 14:28

Oh, I've got chills everywhere.

SPEAKER_01: 14:30

And they wanted to support us. Now they have the benefit. I'm an only child, so there was no other pull there, right? Okay, yes, I have a pull.

SPEAKER_03: 14:37

I have three.

SPEAKER_01: 14:38

Yeah, they're so so in in that regard, they were able to, that was a pretty easy, but but it wasn't easy. I mean, their community was in Seattle, their ideal home uh that they poured a lot of time and energy into was in Seattle, and so they made a huge sacrifice, and this was right before the pandemic happened. So they moved to California and didn't know anybody but us, and then the pandemic happened, and we all kind of hung together. So their sacrifice, I want to be like them when I grew up, basically.

SPEAKER_03: 15:05

I'm just that is worth every bit of our time together right there. I appreciate it because I Ariana, I literally do feel that I was called to be a mother. Yes, I think motherhood is the highest calling. Uh, it was for me. And uh I I just want everyone to know that the most valuable work that you can do, like Ariana's parents, is to understand uh that legacy is it's critical. But I also love that they support you. I just love everything about it. So let's, if you wouldn't mind, because I I will connect everyone with your incredible videos that are out there. But for the sake of what we do here, we have three heartbeats: healthy sense of self, healthy uh behaviors, and healthy communication skills. So before we dive into calling burnout and calling, uh, I'd like to maybe take just a moment for you to tell everyone what a healthy relationship is because you define things so succinctly that you're changing my work. I will go back and use your work as how I define a healthy relationship and then healthy communication.

SPEAKER_01: 16:18

Yeah, great. I love this. Uh, I would say a healthy relationship is when we are coming from a place of humility, which means we are willing to learn and grow. We know we don't have all the answers. Our expectation is to be interdependent with the other person, so not dependent on them for everything, but also not independent. We were meant to be interdependent. Yeah. So we co-share, we co-share the space of listening and speaking. We co-share idea making. We're willing to learn from the other. And it's also okay to say no. I think in healthy relationships, there's an honoring of, hey, I can't do that. Or uh there's no fear of saying no, you know, when you when you recognize a boundary that needs to be put up.

unknown: 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:08

I think healthy relationships allow for you to show up messy, but also include a sense of, I want to respect this space. So messy and lazy are not the same thing. Oh, define. Give us a difference. Yeah. So messy, I think, is when you're really feeling very imperfect that day. Yeah. And you don't have it together. Hot mess. Hot mess. Um, you're not saying things the way you want to.

SPEAKER_03: 17:32

No, we're angry.

SPEAKER_01: 17:33

We're a lot of feelings that maybe you haven't even named yet. You're angry, you're you're hungry, you're tired, all the things. And you know that that other person sees your goodness and does not define you by that moment.

SPEAKER_03: 17:47

Oh my gosh, I love that so much. They see your goodness. Lean in, guys, lean in in a healthy relationship. You see the other's goodness somehow.

SPEAKER_01: 17:57

Yeah, the goodness. You assume the best in that right.

SPEAKER_03: 18:00

Oh my gosh, I'm gonna start screaming. You assume I'm rocking. Yes. Assume the best. Do you have to take a deep breath before that? So, okay, that's messy. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 18:14

Go ahead. Yeah. So I think you do have to take a deep breath uh for that, because it's easy to assume what other people's intent is based on our own filter of the moment.

SPEAKER_03: 18:25

I guess.

SPEAKER_01: 18:26

And so I think taking that time to remember that that I'm assuming the best. I'm assuming that when they said this thing, they didn't mean it as a dig to me. I'm assuming that when they made that face, it actually wasn't about what I'm saying. It's about something else going on. Maybe I should ask a question about that rather than responding. That's assuming the best.

SPEAKER_03: 18:47

I like that. Maybe I should ask a question. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 18:50

Lazy is not including manners when we respond, because manners are always important. Saying thank you for that. I appreciate that. You're welcome. Those things are always important. Laziness lacks self-control and is very self-focused.

SPEAKER_03: 19:14

You do know that you. Oh my gosh. I have not read these things. I have not heard these things. I feel like I too am a communication specialist. But you're just bringing to the conversation uh the nuts and bolts, I think, of what it looks like to have a healthy relationship. You're framing it in such a beautiful way. I've never heard anyone say use your manners.

SPEAKER_01: 19:51

Did you learn that around the table? I mean, I did. Yeah, my parents, but one of the pieces of advice they gave me when getting married is never lose your manners. So I don't know, heartlifters have you ever heard that before?

SPEAKER_00: 20:01

Because I don't think I've heard never forget your manners. Yeah. So like if I if I burp in front of my husband, I'll say, excuse me. Um, when he takes the trash out, I say thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 20:14

When I I love to cook, I don't cook because I'm the woman. I cook because I love to cook and he does the dishes. Um, and every night he'll say thank you for the food. And I will also say thank you for doing the dishes.

SPEAKER_03: 20:26

Yes, we do that.

SPEAKER_01: 20:27

I really appreciate you. And in fact, when we put uh our our son down for bed, we do that together and we all go around and talk about one thing we're grateful for that day. And so I think having a heart of gratitude is the way to solve cynicism and insecurity and self-focus. And I think self-focus happens when we're we have a longing to be known and it's not getting met. So I don't think self-focus starts off as a bad thing, I think it's a reaction to I need to feel seen and I'm not feeling seen.

SPEAKER_03: 21:02

That's attachment uh words there when our community really is growing and learning so much about how important it is to have that secure attachment, which sounds like you had that as a child. And I I pound the table that if you don't give a child anything else, please give them that. 100% because it builds resilience and so many things. Okay, you just talked about humility, so we're gonna get back to that because that is a very huge part of your book. That I have never had a conversation in over 300 conversations of this podcast on humility. I love it. I know here you are. I I don't know if I've ever heard anyone teach about healthy humility. So we have to, okay. So you defined healthy relationships. You also define healthy communication. I'm just gonna read what I heard you say is the healing balm to interpersonal and organizational tenderness and wounds.

unknown: 22:03

What?

SPEAKER_03: 22:04

Ariana, I stopped the tape. I was watching and I'm rewinding it. I'm rewinding. I'm going, never heard healthy communication is called the healing balm. Why? Why, why did you write that definition that way?

SPEAKER_01: 22:19

Yeah, and let me just say communication is verbal, nonverbal, and written. So it's it's both what we say, how we say it, and then the record in which we keep our messages.

SPEAKER_03: 22:34

Which is now texting, which is so dangerous.

SPEAKER_02: 22:36

Oh my gosh, it's the worst form of communication.

SPEAKER_03: 22:38

It's awful.

SPEAKER_02: 22:39

So dangerous.

SPEAKER_01: 22:40

Let me just say as a side note, you know, my my husband uh and I were both professors at Biola, but now he's working as the dean of a seminary. So we don't get the chance to carpool together as much anymore at all, really. And we were trying to find a way to have relational maintenance each day. And so we were using text and it was awful. And so now we actually use a visual audio recording um and we leave messages for each other so that we can see each other's face, hear the intonation and pausing. Um, because you literally nonverbal communication is about 70 to 75 percent of the communication. Yeah, I've heard up to 93, right? Yeah. And if and if and and intimacy communication nonverbal is 93%.

SPEAKER_03: 23:21

Okay. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01: 23:23

So emoticons do not replace nonverbals as much as we would like for them to on texting. And so when you don't have that, the the pausing, the tone, the pacing, if you don't have the facial expressions, you're missing out on the majority of the communication. And then again, we insert how we're feeling in the moment as we read those texts.

SPEAKER_03: 23:43

So, what if you wouldn't mind, just because I know everyone's gonna go, Janelle, why didn't you ask this question? What what do you use? What is Oh, right?

SPEAKER_00: 23:49

We use Marco Polo for lack of Marco Polo, got it.

SPEAKER_01: 23:52

Yeah. We yeah, we tried um all different kinds, and I'm not sure if that's the one we'll stick with, but we just needed something to do. And if we can't do that, we'll just use an audio recording so we're hearing our voices.

SPEAKER_03: 24:04

Yes, I love that. Thank you. That's really wise, and I want everyone to take note of that because uh I think in the counseling room, uh, I can't tell you how many, if not all, pull out their phones and go, read this text, read this text that he or she sent me. And I'm like, No, I don't put it away, right? Put it away. I don't, I don't want to go down that road because it is really dangerous. Um, like you said, because there's no tonal voice, there's no intonations, there's no facial. Okay, and then you say healthy communication is the ability to give and receive messages in ways that are truthful, kind, and clear.

SPEAKER_04: 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:51

Oh my goodness, with an awareness of your own ideas and messages as well as the expressed ideas and feelings of others. Bravo. I mean, wow. So I just wanted that to be foundational uh in this particular conversation for everyone because it is one of our primary tenets here. And I want to always offer hope that it is possible to learn how to have healthy communication, right? Will you affirm that?

SPEAKER_01: 25:25

100%. But let me also be clear I am not talking about perfecting it, I'm talking about learning it, right? And so every every week there are many moments where I don't have healthy communication with somebody. Of course.

SPEAKER_03: 25:38

That's how to me that's how I've learned it, right? I've learned it through my blunders.

SPEAKER_01: 25:42

Yes. Through, yeah. When we know the goal, we can pursue it. And the reason communication is the healing bomb, and when I'm talking about communication, it's the verbal, nonverbal, and written, is that we know from scripture the tongue is the rudder of the ship. We know that out of the heart, the mouth speaks. We know that Jesus used communication to demonstrate the miraculous hand of God, and so it just goes to show one plus one equals two. Yeah, the communication we see in scripture that is affirmed is what brings life and what can have the possibility of bringing death.

SPEAKER_03: 26:21

Correct. So I also wanted that beautiful foundation because what's most primary in the pursuit of calling to me, from what I've read in your book, is our relationship with the caller.

SPEAKER_01: 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:41

So it's important to really understand the principles of healthy communication and a healthy relationship so that we can frame that with our maker, with our caller, right? And I think uh I never knew that. I mean, I've gone 30 years of walking with Christ, not understanding emotions and healthy emotions and healthy relationships and healthy communication. So I just appreciate that you have married it all, like you've you've put it all together so that ultimately your ultimate goal, Ariana, is that we will have a healthy relationship with our caller.

SPEAKER_01: 27:26

Absolutely. And thank you so much for sharing that. And, you know, this is backed up by data, my own personal experience. Uh, but ultimate when we're talking about that relationship with the caller, it's multi-layered. It's, you know, because it it's relationship with ourselves and the caller, and then the community that we impact and that that community that impacts us, all of it is connected. It is so when we're experiencing relationship with the caller, that's our that's our compass. Um, when we focus on our calling instead of our caller, we get into trouble.

SPEAKER_03: 27:59

We do, and that's why you wrote this incredible book on calling burnout. Never heard it called that. And that's why I have gotten into trouble. I know that. And I know that's why I've experienced calling burnout and overwhelm because I uh do not keep that relationship with the caller as you write. We begin we take on the role as caller, right?

SPEAKER_01: 28:26

It's really hard though, especially when you're thinking about the role of mothering. I I know that my own understanding of how to spend time with God was really rocked when I became a parent. I mean, from early on. My I mean, my my incredible son, who by the way, I actually didn't know if I I mean I knew I wanted to be a parent, but I didn't know if that was a calling for me. And then I held him in my arms and I had a moment the minute I held him in my arms. Tell me, tell us, please. I fell in love with him. I just think he is so incredible. Actually, even when I was pregnant, and I think maybe it's because I we it was a hard thing for us, but when he would push on my stomach, you know, and you'd have the little pitter-patter feet inside my tummy, I would just pat my stomach and say, Thank you for communicating with me. I'm so excited to meet you. And I would just talk to him even at that moment and just say, Hi there, I see you. I'm so excited. Thank you for communicating with me. And so, you know, the minute he could talk, I also wanted him to know he could ask me any question. And so when he asks me, and he's a question asker, when he asks me the questions, I always start by saying, Did you know smart people ask questions? I'm so glad you asked me that.

SPEAKER_03: 29:37

You're such a good, good woman and mother.

SPEAKER_01: 29:39

I'm so glad he called you to mother. I learned it from my parents. And I learned it from negative situations too. You know, I had some teachers who really did not invite question asking in a classroom. And I and so I learned okay, that made me feel really stupid. Uh I never want anyone to feel that way.

SPEAKER_03: 29:59

Oh, that. For sure. I'm right there with you. Don't ever want anyone to feel this way. Ever. Yeah. Particularly.

SPEAKER_01: 30:06

So okay, my son's amazing, but he we had a really hard time nursing. I saw six lactation consultants. It was very dehumanizing. It never worked out. I pumped for you know nine months and then I had to just breastfeeding is hard enough, but then all other components. It's interesting. They've really come a long way in many places where there's breastfeeding rooms. There's not a lot of places that have outlets. So if you are reliant on pumps alone, and there's this really strange visceral feeling of like, if I can't feed my son, what am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_03: 30:39

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:41

There was a lot of moments where I'm like, I just am trying to get through the day. And so spending time with God was not a like my ideal time with God is the old school way. I mean, not ever that's not the case for everybody. Gary Thomas wrote this fantastic book, Sacred Pathways. That's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_03: 30:56

Oh my gosh, it's that once I finally didn't feel guilty for being in nature.

SPEAKER_02: 31:02

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01: 31:03

Yes. I'm the same. I I need to be in nature, I need contemplation, and I need enthusiasm. So I'm all the three things. Well, we are just soulmates, yes. But so my my ideal situation would be to sit on the floor looking at something beautiful in nature and read the Bible and pray and just like meditate on scripture and just chew on it like a good piece of so juicy and lovely and delicious.

SPEAKER_02: 31:26

As a new parent, there's no time for that. I understand. I had twins. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 31:35

Vivacious and amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 31:36

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:37

So you so what did you have?

SPEAKER_01: 31:40

I went through a lot of guilt about that for a long time. And I but I didn't stop talking to God. I just was like, I don't know what I'm doing here, Lord. And um, I now love uh Lectio 365 is a devotional that I love to use. It's the best. It's so the best. I love the international dynamic, I love the continual nature, I love the structure. What's great is my husband and I will listen to it separately as we drive.

SPEAKER_00: 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 32:05

Oh, you have so many solid, solid foundations and habits. I love it so much.

SPEAKER_00: 32:13

Well, again, it's it's from like learning what not to do, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 32:16

Yes, I know. But and then on our Sabbath days, we actually read it together and listen to it together. But I think what I would say is as a parent, I learned that there are seasons where spending time with God is offering up your pleas for help and your cries for help and not falling into that thing of like I can do it myself. Cause there's this weird mom adrenaline that can happen where you do have like a superpower to push through. Oh, oh, forever. Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_02: 32:44

Up until adult, yes, it's not gone.

SPEAKER_01: 32:47

Up until something happens. And I, you know, the last three years I've had a lot of different physical health things that happened, even while I was writing this book, that some of which were out of my control and some of them were in my control. And having the compass of healthy humility to guide me was a really essential way of getting out of that really hard season.

SPEAKER_03: 33:08

Okay. So I think that we need to talk about that then. I might just add in a little teaching on calling burnout because, like I've said to you before we started, Ariana, there are just you have so much to offer and say. So I, with your permission, I might just add in teachings from the book because we just can't get to it all right here. Um, but one of the most important things I am gleaning from your work is healthy humility. I have not, I really have not seen this taught. So would you please just tell us why that's in a book about healthy calling?

SPEAKER_00: 33:45

It's surprising. Like, what if the word humility doesn't feel like that sexy of a topic? You know, it's like, oh, it's not virtue. Yeah, it's not.

SPEAKER_02: 33:52

It's just not. That's why I haven't read anything on it.

SPEAKER_01: 33:56

One of the reasons as a social scientist, I love studying data. And I'm a qualitative researcher, which means I look at stories, I look at uh interviews, focus groups, messages, and I see what themes emerge is the data's there, you know, you can interpret it in different ways, but it's there. And so the data about humility is so awesome. It's so compelling.

SPEAKER_03: 34:19

Wow. You spent a year doing this, right?

SPEAKER_01: 34:22

I spent a year doing this. So actually, when I was in my third year of my being a professor, I had a burnout moment. Um, I remember laying in bed in the middle of the night at the time I was single, but I was engaged. So I was planning a wedding, I was teaching an overload, I was on too many committees. I was in this very strange season that almost feels sort of silly to complain about, where I had a lot of good opportunities.

SPEAKER_03: 34:46

Yeah, she talk about the danger of the yeses, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 34:49

The danger of the yeses. And I had a lot of good opportunities, but I was laying there in bed one night and I was just like, what is wrong with me? I'm exhausted, but my heart is beating fast. I am mentally depleted, but my that's going a mile a minute, and I'm like not as patient with myself and others. And I began checking off the list of like what burnout looks like because I had done the research on it, and I thought, oh my gosh, I'm having that right now.

SPEAKER_00: 35:13

No, I have that right now.

SPEAKER_01: 35:15

And so I was like, I need to make a course correction really fast because the calling we have is a gift from God. And I want to honor and steward that. I don't want to dismiss that. I don't wanna, I don't wanna bury it or or not do it proper respect, you know. So I saw this call for a fellowship, a research fellowship, which meant I would have only half the amount of teaching. And then the other half the time, I would get to basically sit in a room of cherry wood, dark furniture, delicious snacks, and intellectual rich conversation with others. That sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_03: 35:49

When you compare it to the inklings, which I was like, yes, who doesn't want to have that moment? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01: 35:55

And so you did have it. I did have it. But the funny thing is, God knows, isn't it so cool how the Holy Spirit knows before we do? He does. I didn't even care what the fellowship was about, I just needed a break. But it just so happens that the fellowship research was about humility. I was like, oh, that's interesting. Again, it's cool how the Holy Spirit works because when I was in junior high, um, I was asked to like be the valedictorian of junior high or whatever the term was for that. And I had to choose a verse for that. And it was Ephesians 4 that says, be completely humble and gentle, be patient, bearing with one another in love, make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace. So humility's been chasing me down.

SPEAKER_03: 36:40

Middle school, junior high. Okay, that's a foreshadowing moment. Right, right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 36:46

So when I'm in doing this fellowship, what I learned very quickly is that humility can be interpreted or approached from a variety of different ways, and scholars can't even fully agree on it. But it is clear about a couple things. So here's the grid humility can be identified with three things. Humility, first of all, let's talk about what it isn't. It is not the same as modesty. Modesty is, you know, if someone gives you a compliment, you're like, oh, thank you, and you kind of shrug and you don't want the attention. And you know, that's that that has its place, I suppose. But but a humble person knows the strengths that they have, they're aware of their weaknesses, they're not distracted by either one. That's the first criteria. They know their strengths, they know what they're good at. They're they're confident in that. You look at you know, uh leadership books like Jim Collins' Good to Great book, that famous book, or Patrick Lanchoni's work on ideal team player, humility is at the top of what makes a good employee.

SPEAKER_03: 37:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 37:43

And we don't want someone who doesn't know what they're good at. That's incompetence. That's not humility.

SPEAKER_03: 37:50

That's right. That's good, very good distinction. Love it.

SPEAKER_01: 37:52

I think, especially as women, sometimes we don't know how to receive it. I'm not entirely sure why we've been socialized that way.

SPEAKER_03: 37:58

Oh, we have.

SPEAKER_01: 37:59

Yeah, yeah. Um, so so the first part of humility is you know your strengths, you know your weaknesses. You're not thinking about either one of those things, you're not distracted by them. The second thing about humility is that it is a lifestyle of learning. Which means you are not threatened that you don't know everything.

SPEAKER_03: 38:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 38:19

It means that you have an intellectual curiosity, a relational curiosity to learn more.

SPEAKER_03: 38:25

I love that. I love it.

SPEAKER_01: 38:27

I mean, if you think about Jesus, he's called rabbi and teacher. He is literally inviting us to keep learning.

SPEAKER_03: 38:35

Yeah. And trying to so not get enthusiastic. No, I love it. I love it so much. Trying to just be quiet. So hard, heartlifter. So I'm really trying.

SPEAKER_01: 38:46

You know, this is a complete tangent, but I was I was watching a show the other day, and I'm not gonna mention the show because I don't know if it's always good.

SPEAKER_04: 38:54

I know, who knows?

SPEAKER_01: 38:55

But but the the phrase that the mom said to the daughter was, you are never too much and you are always enough. And I feel like that mantra. So I would say to you, you said earlier, like you're never like you don't dim yourself down. And I say, Don't do that. Like, I'm loving your interaction.

SPEAKER_03: 39:11

I'm just trying to give you the space, but it's just so necessary. Okay, so humility in this book about burnout, it's essential for leaders, it's essential, and mothers are leaders. Yes, they are essential, it's at the top of the list. Go ahead, because I'm waiting with bated breath for the the next one.

SPEAKER_01: 39:30

The third one. The third one. This is a hard one. It is the third part of humility is the ability to walk away, to unplug, to say, I'm gonna take a moment, I'm gonna pause and to know that things are not gonna fall apart. Because in that third part of humility, we remember who's in charge. We remember our place in all of this. We are not God. And guess what? Even God rested.

SPEAKER_03: 39:55

And again, like learning how to Sabbath and rest as a parent, especially when your kids are young, but I would say no matter how old they are, because you're caretaking with them or their kids, or you're worrying about them, or you're, you know, all the things traveling on planes, my all mind live three different places, and you know, it it I love that you say it is a capacity. I love the word capacity, and I feel like what you're saying to have the capacity to step away, to walk away, to surrender. You talk a lot about surrender. Okay, so those are the three. I will reiterate them for sure for everyone, and they are in your book, clear as can be. You also, I want to close, I think, with uh, well, I don't want to close, never, not with you, but gratitude. You talk about gratitude in a way I've not heard it talked about. So if you would just kind of wrap all of this around the greatest of virtues, would you say gratitude's a virtue?

SPEAKER_01: 40:56

Oh, 100% it's a virtue. I think in some ways, gratitude is humility in action. I think another way to think about that is you know, gratitude is knowing who's you are and who you are and who's in charge. It is um, it is the thing that will dissolve cynicism. It is the thing that will turn the lights on when we have a grateful heart, when we have a thankful heart, yeah, our face is lifted up rather than curled inward.

SPEAKER_03: 41:28

Yes, yes, yes. Hold on one okay, let me, I'm gonna read this as you you wrote this. What is the core of humility? That's what you're really teaching us, okay? And you say the key to humility is gratitude to the giver, so not only the caller, but the giver of all things. And I asked this question how might humility and gratitude alter the possible calling burnout and mothering?

SPEAKER_00: 42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 42:03

I'm just throwing that out. Like, how might it alter?

SPEAKER_01: 42:08

I think that for me, if I were to answer that question, which is a great question, it reorients the perspective a bit. It reorients how we're seeing the mess in our homes that we wish were cleaning up. It reorients the fact that we didn't get to do the thing that the PTA is asking us to do with, you know, the I my kid had spirit week for the first time he's in kindergarten and I super failed the whole week. I didn't know, I wasn't prepared. Yeah. But but we just decided to go with it and have fun. I think humility is is learning. So but I so part of it is I made a note for next year. Be prepared, be more prepared for spirit week because like I just so adorable.

SPEAKER_04: 42:51

Um I'm laughing because I've been there.

SPEAKER_01: 42:54

It's just yeah, it's but I think that when we parent from gratitude, we are co-parents not just with our partners, but with God. We allow him to be part of the parenting process.

SPEAKER_03: 43:06

Um I love the word reorient. You talk a lot about it, but for time's sake, I can't go into it. But you do say like the three C's of calling, which I will just say really quickly here. The three C three C's of calling are the caller, of course, the called, and the community. Calling is integrative, comprehensive, and personal. And I will add in a teaching moment about that, Ariana, because I really appreciate you saying that humility is radical, reorienting, and redemptive. That's what I was getting at. So you to in order to reorient uh burnout in my mind, it is reconnecting with the caller, knowing my place, walking in humility. Uh, these are all very fresh invitations uh that are being given through your book that I have not received. And they are right on time in my own life. My biggest takeaway, and we will close here, you say while burnout in general is definitely concerning, leading to depression, anxiety, increased sick days, relational conflict, a kind of psychological paralysis, and an overriding sense of shame. Hello, burnout. Burnout from a calling is more than that. And I think this is where you rocked me and you gave me the answer I needed. It's devastating to the core. Burnout in general results in deep and consuming feelings of I don't like what I'm doing anymore. But burnout from a calling goes beyond that. Burnout from a calling is I don't know who I am anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:46

And I think that's significant for everyone to really uh sit with because I'm sure you felt it when you became a mother because uh you you have a significant educational academic calling. I even feel like you're a preacher, like you were preaching when we got started, girl. You were preaching. And I was like, please don't stop because you were on fire. And I think it's very significant that you write about humility to understand that you know, our identity is not our calling. I mean, you could say it's our identity is our calling as a child of God.

SPEAKER_01: 45:27

Yeah, our primary calling.

SPEAKER_03: 45:28

Our primary calling. Right. But when you start to reverse the C's, the capital C and the small c and take on the role of the capital caller and think that if I don't do this work, the world's gonna fail. I mean, that's how I felt when I left my trauma work. It's like, what are my clients gonna do? I mean, they were like, what are we gonna do with it? I'm like, I don't know. And I just, you know, I just carried that weight for a very long time. So I think all of us need to take a moment. Please read Ariana, watch every video I sent you through the show notes, and recognize once again that it just comes down to knowing our worth and our value and that we have our dignity in the caller. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 46:14

Thank you. And I would say that it's an honor to have this conversation. I'm happy to keep having the conversation. The thing about burnout is it doesn't go away on our own. On its own. We actually need to stop and not get used to it. It's not gonna go away. And it's a spectrum, so it's not like we want to wait till it gets really, really bad. When we start noticing those burnout tendencies, we have to stop then. We have to reorient then because we don't want our relationship with the caller to be corroded by this kind of toxic burnout.

SPEAKER_03: 46:45

And it is so toxic. And I shared with you before we started, I mean, this is my third round of I would say toxic burnout. And it's it's burnout calling burnout, because I've always felt called as a teacher and then a mother, and you know, so those don't go away. So you're right, you know, and I thought this time that I would recognize it earlier because I do know the signs, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_02: 47:09

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 47:10

It was even harder because it involved the healing of family systems, and that's what I feel so called to. So I think at the end of the day, like you said, humility puts you back in your place.

SPEAKER_01: 47:21

Yes. And it's hope. Humility also is so hopeful.

SPEAKER_03: 47:26

Thank you for adding that.

SPEAKER_01: 47:28

You know, again in Micah 6:8, what is the Lord asking of us? To walk humbly. Walk humbly with him. Not not not on our own, not walking on our own, with him. And the Good Shepherd knows if you have a moment where he needs to put you on his shoulders. And it's never too late. It's never too late. We are purpose-driven creatures. Therefore, the work we seek to do is a thirst we will have from the moment we're born till the moment we meet him in person.

SPEAKER_03: 47:58

Yes. It is really hard to say goodbye to you.

SPEAKER_00: 48:04

Well, let's not say goodbye. We'll just say until the next time.

SPEAKER_03: 48:06

Okay, I'll see it, Viola. All right. Okay. Thank you so much, Ariana, for giving us uh this time at the table. Appreciate it so much.

SPEAKER_02: 48:15

Pleasure.

SPEAKER_03: 48:17

Thanks for listening today, Heartlifter. Be sure to hop over to Substack at Heartlift Central, Instagram at JanelleRarden, and if you would be so kind, make a tax-deductible donation to keep this podcast ad-free and spreading its influence all over the world. You can make that donation on my website, JanelleRarden.com, HeartLift International. Everything you need to know is right there. Remember, Heartlifter, you have value, worth, and dignity.