Today's Heartlift with Janell

357. Unlearning False Agendas

• Janell Rardon • Episode 357

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A quiet lie can steer a whole life. We sat down with Pastor Gary Thomas, author of Living the Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God, to name the deceptions that slip into our thinking, even inside church walls, and to rebuild a vision of intimacy with God that can weather real storms. From the first moments, we trace how distraction has become the pattern of our age and why a renewed mind is the only way back to delight, trust, and fruitful obedience.

Gary takes us behind his new book and the intentional choice of the word “dismantling”—a call to active agency in pulling down structures that block spiritual growth. We explore how small, untested myths shape daily choices, then map that insight onto spiritual half-truths that leave us frustrated with God. The conversation turns tender and bold when we address “family first.” Jesus warned that allegiance to him can divide households; anchoring identity in the Father’s love frees us from chasing validation in our children’s responses and equips us to love without bargaining. That shift releases unnecessary shame and restores the courage to hold truth with humility.

We also dive into control and the lost art of spiritual adventure. When we surrender outcomes and stay alert to the Spirit’s movement, God often uses surprising agents to answer our prayers. Finally, we reframe peace. It isn’t situational—stacked on health, money, and harmony—but relational, grounded in the presence of Christ who holds us when the house shakes. If fear imagines futures without God, peace remembers who is with us right now. 

If this conversation helped you see your life and faith with fresh eyes, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs courage today, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show.

Follow Gary Thomas on Instagram: Gary Thomas Books

Visit Gary's Website: Gary Thomas 

Get the shownotes: SHOWNOTES

Listen to E.70, "Unlearning with Meditative Exercise, 'The Waiting Room.'"

Listen to E.146, "Reimagining Your Love Life," with Gary Thomas

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  6. Meet me on Instagram: @janellrardon
SPEAKER_00:

The Bible warns us about something more sinister going on. Spiritual lies that have an agenda. They're based not on ignorance but on malice. They are weeds sown into the garden of God's church to lead God's children astray from a flourishing life in Christ. Every lie you hear and believe cuts you off from flourishing in that aspect of life. Every one. And many of them are even born, propagated, and defended in some churches. These spiritual lies are far more serious than what kind of spread we put on our toast or how much air we put into our tires. That's why if there's one thing a Christian can't afford to take for granted, it's the truth. What we believe impacts us emotionally, spiritually, relationally, and physically. The Apostle Paul wrote these famed words. Do not conform to the pattern of this world. It actually is singular. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Every age has its own pattern. I believe today's age focuses on distraction. The world's agenda is to distract us from delighting in God, cause us to lose our satisfaction in God, ruin our faith in God, and make us miss out on living lives of fulfilling obedience. A reading from the life you were reborn to live, dismantling 12 lies that rob your intimacy with God by one of my favorites, author Gary Thomas. Welcome, Gary Thomas. You're back. How exciting. Last time we talked about sex.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks, Janelle. It's always great to get together with you.

SPEAKER_00:

This time we're going on. Not that that wasn't a deep topic, and it was definitely one that was, you know, challenging to talk about, but it was such a good episode, and I will link back to that. It was in a it was in February. So that's really cool that we're almost in February when we're recording this. And as I said on the show notes, then Love you, as Hallmark calls it. So I want everybody to re-listen to that episode as well. But we're here today to talk about your newest book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, and the subtitle, which always is what I look at most, is Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. So once again, we're talking about intimacy. Right? Into me, you but this time we're we're talking about our intimate relationship with God. And right from the get-go, because I'm an author, I guess, and a writer, I really love the placement of words and especially those selection of verbs. Because when you're writing the chapters as an author, positioning verbs is typically very important. I am dying to know why you chose dismantling, dismantle. And would you define that for us?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you you know how this works, Janelle, as an author. My original title and focus was called The Art of Unlearning. How do I unlearn things that aren't true that I've always thought are true? Yes. For whatever reason, my publisher thought, no, that's negative to dismantling. So that's not negative. I wanted the title to be The Art of Unlearning.

SPEAKER_00:

I am very sorry, Gary Thomas.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what was going through my mind. I don't usually advocate when a publisher comes back and says, no, that's not what we want. No. I do like the notion of the life you were reborn to live. Yes. Because it points out that a lot of us have been reborn spiritually, but our mindset is still living by the old rules, by the old life. We're not experiencing the fullness of life in Christ. So it's just inside publishing for the listeners. Two authors are talking. That's how these things work. I've I man, I I don't know if there are any of my books that I actually titled. I'm trying to um, but most of them, the publishers marketing team hashes out.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, unlearning is a huge psychological term, so I guess that's why it lit my fire.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, it's with your training, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, for sure. It's it's definitely learned helplessness. There's a lot involved in unlearning, and I have a show on that, so I'll put that in the notes as well, so you guys can understand. But I I do really love the title as far as being reborn, because you're right. Many, you know, well, I would say most of my listeners have been reborn into the family of faith, yet we still live in the lies.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That it's so, I mean, even my own life recently, I'm like, come on, God, I am 66. You gotta be kidding me. I cannot need to learn something else.

SPEAKER_02:

I I can't tell you how many times I've had that conversation. I thought in my 60s, am I there? But you know, we all we all grow up with lies that just get unquestioned and they shape us. One of the ones I grew up with is that margarine is better for you than butter. That's what they marketed. My mom bought this tub called I Can't Believe It's Not Butter. For the record, I could tell it wasn't butter. And nutrition scientists would say now it was far worse for you than but far worse, yes. Or our age, we always grew up with you have to wait 30 minutes to swim after you eat because you'll get cramps. The science behind that was ridiculous that when you eat, your digestion goes towards your diet, your blood flow goes through the digestive system, which could make your outer extremities cramp. That's not true. Don't be out in the cold. Don't be outside in the cold, or you'll catch a cold. Well, actually, getting vitamin D in the winter is one of the best things you can do to fight back a cold. It is. Colds come from a virus, not from being outside in the cold. Now, so what is this? That kept us inside in the winter, it kept us on the beach in the summer. How much margin did we eat? Those are things that nobody questioned. We all know none of it is true now, but they did impact the way we lived. And yeah, this book is about the spiritual lives that we've just assumed, some in the culture and some in the church that keep us not just from swimming or taking a walk outside, but as you mentioned, that all important intimacy with God.

SPEAKER_00:

And and the most important thing, of course, everything you say is important, Gary. But the most important part of what you said was the lack of questioning, like not questioning, because that links to not having autonomy and agency when we deal with, you know, we we what I lost in my life was autonomy and agency, even within the walls, if not even more so within the walls of the system of church, especially being a female. And I think that what you're saying here is that we have been given agency by Christ, by God, by the Holy Spirit, the whole Trinity wants us to question. We have that, that's a gift to be able to question. And so going back to that placement of the verb dismantle, because then in all the chapters, the second verb is learn. Yes, and I am just obsessed with each and every chapter. We cannot get to each one, but the how long, my lord, did it take you to to write the words for these chapter titles, but dismantle why that one, and then learn being the new behavior.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. Well, and in my original and manuscript, it was unlearn this lie and learn this lie. And then when they changed the title, I had to go back and yes. Every time I said unlearn, I had to put dismantle. Oh man, stuck a few unlearns in there just for fun. But I found a few and I love them. These came from life experience. The problem with these lies is that they have real-world consequences. They either keep us in frustration, they make us angry toward God, or they keep us from the joy of life in Christ. Whatever the outcome is, if we don't expose them, if we don't consciously reject them, they're holding us back and we don't even know it. It's like you're trying to run and you've got this rope holding you back. It's like, you know, do I not have any strength? And it's like, well, cut the rope and watch yourself go. We got to cut the rope with these lies.

SPEAKER_00:

I need you to help us cut the rope. And why on earth are you so passionate about this at this phase of your journey? I mean, you've written on many, many topics. So I was I'm just so curious if it's because you have the pulse, your finger on the pulse of so many followers.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think being a pastor and just talking with people and seeing the impact that these lies have. But everyone has impacted me personally, Janelle. When I look it back, each one I feel like changed my life to say, oh, I've got to unlearn. I can't I can't keep because it's easy to fall back into it. I said, no, Gary, unlearn that. That's kind of why I like to unlearn instead of just mantle. Don't let that have a hold on you anymore. No. And and then the freedom and the joy that came from getting rid of it and embracing the truth. I just I got excited about it. So yeah, it was a fun book to write, but it took a long time to to record all 12 of these.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's my next question because I feel like it's really personal.

SPEAKER_02:

It is, it was.

SPEAKER_00:

It feels very personal. I feel anguish of the dismantling, which is comforting because I too am unlearning and dismantling something that I was not aware was even in operation in my life until my heart went into AFib. So it's like until I was immobile and right there at the threshold of what's going on. We are subconscious a lot of times about what's dismantling us about these lies. Because I mean, okay, I I told you, heartlifters, this is gonna be I'm gonna have to take some deep breaths. I'm gonna jump forward because we're kind of at that place and then go backwards again. But you write about complacent ignorance. Yes. Okay. So you're going to the very end. I know, I'm sorry. We're gonna just go there and then we're gonna come back because we're kind of there. Because there are these false agendas. You write about false agendas. There's just so many great words that you've chosen. So I wrote, How do I we identify false agendas? And then would that be related to a complacent ignorance?

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm. The reality is scripture says very clearly the one who gets wisdom loves life, the one who cherishes understanding will soon prosper. We're told elsewhere that understanding is better than silver, wisdom is better than gold. And I I would just ask our listeners, this is an example of a lie that we just absorbed. How many of us believe that to the extent that we base our lives on it? When we're at this start here of 2026, how many of us are thinking, how can I be wiser in December? Or some are thinking, well, how can I be out of debt by the end of December? How can I increase my retirement number so that I can retire? But the reality is we think about gold and silver. We work toward gold and silver far more than we work toward wisdom and understanding, which does we don't believe what God says is true. That wisdom will exalt you, that you will be honored if you embrace it. And so we spend more time trying to earn more money and far more time trying to be entertained than we think it is to expose the lies and to grow in wisdom. And you look at the decline of reading, and you know, and it's not just reading podcasts like yours that spew wisdom are a way to do that. So hearing as well. But the sense is do we value wisdom as much as scripture does? And you know, I think if you look at our lives and the pattern of our life, no, we value pursuing money and experiencing entertainment. Now, look, there's a place for earning money, of course. Of course, there's a place for entertainment, but when we turn those upside down, we're we're wondering what why are we so frustrated? And I see this, I see it especially with women. I'm married to an incredibly beautiful 61-year-old, and we've we've been married for 41 years. Me too. The pressure that she feels is that the goal of her life, if you look at her friends, this isn't her goal, but a lot of her friends, is to increasingly look younger than you really are. Absolutely. Instead of women saying, How can I bless my family by becoming wiser and wiser and being this fount of wisdom that you can grow and develop? And that the butt, but it's no, they're trying to say, no, yeah, 55, but I look 25, don't I? And that's where they're spending their money and their time and their effort and their focus. And they're shortchanging the impact of what it means to become elderly and wise and to have that gift that you can give your family. They're trying to give them another gift. And here's the thing pursuing beauty to impress others is self-centered. It's vanity. Pursuing wisdom to bless others is others-centered. What kind of woman, what kind of a man do we want to be? One that impresses others, or one that has a vast store of wisdom with which we can bless others.

SPEAKER_00:

We really have to take a breath because you are talking to, you're talking to my heartlifters. And I, we are so committed to being heartlifters, which is a woman who stands in the center of her spheres of influence with healthy, healthy, healthy, healthy, you know, healthy behavior, healthy communication, healthy sense of self. What a challenge. Thank you, Pastor, for putting on your pastor hat there. And really urging would be the word. I think it's the critical pivot that needs to be made. I'm calling it the mothering effect in my work. That's where I'm writing and working. Because at the end of the day, all the research, everything that I've been putting my little hands on anyway, is like, boy, we better have we better have some wise women.

SPEAKER_02:

We better We need wise children. See, we just need wisdom everywhere. Yes. She tries to raise children who are wise. Not if a woman's superficial, I don't mean to sound critical, but that's tends to be what her daughters are going to copy. It's the kind of woman her son will look to marry, and it becomes this generational spread. When we just say to the culture, look, beauty is a wonderful thing. Being young and strong and athletic, let's celebrate it, let's watch the Olympics, let's clap. But when you're 65, if you're still thinking I'm as valuable as I can be if I look like I did 30 years ago, is a failure to mature and a rejection of scripture's truth.

SPEAKER_00:

Gary, a failure to mature. You don't have to apologize. This is okay. We're here to bring out truth. That is the basis of this book. It's truth, truth, truth. And the truth is it's a failure to mature. And I am pointing the finger right back at me. Because I was a dancer and a vital woman up until about six months ago. You know, just vitality. And then my heart said, man, not so good. Yeah, you need to make some changes. So I'm listening.

SPEAKER_02:

I I recognize it's I'm listening. Easier for men than women. If people can't see me, but I'm bald. There's there's nothing that's, you know, kind of like the jokes in sitcoms. Oh no, is he bald? So it's just kind of easier for guys. I know the pressure is greater on women.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I it it tends to be the female rock stars and and actresses that feel like they have to do all of that, although increasingly that's not the case.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it is not. No, I have that conversation with women in the in stores, delis, everywhere, everywhere I go. We we always just I always laugh and go, this store needs to have a little chat room in the back where we can all have some coffee and have a support group for the aging. Oh, but we're not here to talk about that. What we're here to really, really talk about. So stay tuned because I'm gonna make a we'll we'll have a show on that subject because the failure to mature is really resonating with me right now in all the right ways, because our goal as a follower of Jesus is spiritual maturity. And this book is meet, and it is a spiritually mature guide, I think. That's what I loved about it, and that's why you got really personal, I think, because you're passionate about us dismantling these lies and learning. Okay, so now I'm gonna go back to the beginning because to me, where I'm living and my goal for 2026 was in learning the preeminence of Father God. So is that chapter two, three? Dismantling family first, learn the preeminence of father God. And let me read this quote that your beautiful publicist sent to me. I think she's your publicist, Sophia. And I was curious, I'm gonna read the email, Janelle. I wanted to share a quote from Gary Thomas's new book. I got this back in July. Two weeks before I had my dismantling and my heart went into AF and found myself in at the back of an ambulance. Yuck. I thought you would think, I thought you might find this quote interesting. And I thought to myself, out of all the quotes in the book, why was she asking me? This and in July, I was in the middle of a family vacation. So I got it, I read it, and now I'm I had to come back to it. Trying to find our ultimate meaning in our family keeps us from loving them as we should, while blinding us to the fulfillment of being a part of God's family. Pastor Gary would love to dive into this idea. Okay, Pastor Gary, here you are. Dive into this because I'm telling you, that's that's a a meaty sentence.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I've got my next book coming out.

SPEAKER_00:

I I hope we You already have a next book coming out. You just this is fabulous.

SPEAKER_02:

What is it? It's it's gonna be a while. It's the fall of 2027, so it's it's over a year before we'll be talking. But it's called When Christian Parents Hurt. Oh my god. It's parents who have had their hearts broken by their adult children's choices and rejection. And I just I just I've seen this as a pastor where it's an epidemic. It is, and and what Christian parents and women don't understand is how the rules have completely changed in this generation. We grew up, I'm talking as a guy in his 60s. You honor your parents, you appreciate your parents. Unless they were just grossly abusive and ignored us, we felt like there was some sense of indebtedness and gratitude. Today's generation, there's a lot of reasons we could talk about this. The attitude tends to be this I don't owe you anything because I didn't ask to be born, but you owe me everything because you brought me into this world, and now all the pain I feel is your fault.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, Gary. I mean that I know you're writing that book, so you're hot and heavy in that book, and I want that book. I don't want to wait till next fall. That's a long time. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's but that's that's why family, that's why got preeminence of Father God is so key. Help. Because if you put your peace and security, happiness, and joy on whether an earthly spouse, parent, child, church member appreciates you and treats you well, you're making yourself vulnerable to a very sinful world. But when we realize God's acceptance, and that's where we find our meaning. That's why we love out of reverence for God, not because the people we're loving is lovable, not because they're grateful. We love because he first loved 1 John 4.19. When I was writing this chapter, was how much Jesus puts allegiance to him almost over allegiance to our family. Instead of I I grew up thinking, here's the line I'm thinking if you're faithful to God and you raise your family doing all the right things with all the right curriculums, they will be faithful to God, they will appreciate you, and they'll do the same. Yeah, Jesus warns us directly that faith can divide families. Matthew 10, 21 through 22. Brother will betray brother to death, a father, his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by everyone because of me. Wow. But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. No Christian should be surprised if a family member, a brother, a child, a parent, or a spouse turns against us because of our faith. Now, this isn't because we're being jerks or abusive where kids need to create distance. Yes. He's talking about it's our faith and obedience that will turn them against us. And people get so God, I I offered my kids to you. In the first century, the highest call, this is great for your listeners, the highest call for a Jewish woman was to become the mother of the Messiah. There was no greater role than to be the mother of the Messiah because it's a matriarchal, you know, the bloodline passing down, the highest thing and whatnot. And so when people are thinking Jesus is it, they call out to him in Matthew 12, you know, blessed is the this wasn't Matthew 12, this is when the brothers came, but another place in Matthew, blessed um is the womb that bore you and the and and the breast that nurse you. What does Jesus say? Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it. And he's telling women, while it's wonderful to give birth, the highest call for a woman is to be an adopted daughter of God, to understand his commands, obey them, and pass on the kingdom of God. That's where your satisfaction comes from. Not that you're giving birth to a healthy or even a godly family. Now, those are such good aims. I am not women and men, we should pour ourselves out in discipling our children and training our children and praying for our children and our grandchildren. That is a great gift to give to the church. Yes. But Jesus says the highest call is knowing his commands and obeying him. And and and when Jesus was involved in ministry, this is Matthew 12. And they said, Hey, Jesus, your mother and brothers are here. And they thought he'd lost his mind at one point. And Jesus says to the crowd, hear my mothers and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother. Matthew never tells us if Jesus went out to him. I suspect he did. That's speculation. We don't know. But he left it open to say, Jesus is saying the spiritual kingdom is our ultimate allegiance. And I think for today's mothers and grandmothers, if they don't learn this lesson, they're going to live with a broken heart and a sense of guilt and being defeated that Jesus warned us about. Jesus told us this would happen. We have to dismantle that lie that because we love God, every one of our loved ones will love God and love us because we love God. Jesus was clear, it might be the opposite.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I I hope you know, Gary Thomas, how right on that is. How I've not heard that said, preached. Listen to a lot of preaching and sermons and teaching and podcasts and books, and I just have to pause because it's like well, I I would have probably taught the opposite, and maybe even did earlier on, Jamelle.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I see a lot of young pastors. This is what we do, and then raise up a child in the way he should go. In the end, he won't. And and I just want to say these younger pastors, you you need to talk to a few more people who have been through this. You do. Because as a pastor, my heart breaks. And and and these a good friend of mine in Houston was the preeminent marriage and family therapist. He worked with men primarily, but he was so good. And he told me the story of a couple. He said, Gary, this is like one of the godliest couples I've ever known. Young people sought him out, they brought the presence of Jesus with them into a room. You go to their home, and it feels like it is a circle of peace. And they were so estranged from their son that when the mom died, they think it took a year for him to find out.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02:

I grew up thinking if you're really surrendered to the Lord and you're loving and you're acting in love, then your kids are going to appreciate. And I still feel that I still feel remnants of that.

SPEAKER_00:

So we're dismantling that today because it's hard.

SPEAKER_02:

It's hard. And so the thing that hurt me is that this couple would feel guilt. What did we do wrong? Instead of scripture saying, and you look at Proverbs, all of the verses that talk about the shame that a misbehaving son brings on his parents. We turn that around.

SPEAKER_01:

We do.

SPEAKER_02:

The shame that a misbehaving that it's the parents' shame, not the son's shame. Instead of shame on that son for treating his parents that way, shame on the parents for having a son who does that. It's not the biblical truth, but it's like the margarine is better than butter. Yes. We kind of grew up with that in the Christian culture. We did. And that's when we need to dismantle for our own sense of well-being. So that's right when we need to turn to God most, we're not angry at Him or you didn't hold up your end of the bargain. I raised them up in the way they should go. Um and said we find comfort and afflict and and and just affirmation from God. One of the verses in the chapters in the new books is, Comfort ye, comfort my people. Comfort, comfort ye, my people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

That God says to a group of people through Isaiah, people that are being disobedient, hey, I want to comfort them. They've been beaten up. And and every parent can be beaten up because nobody parented perfectly.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

We can all point to a hundred mistakes that we made, things we wish we would have done differently. But God through Isaiah says, I want to comfort you in the midst of your sin. Yes. I love you so much. I affirm you. I know you weren't perfect, but now's the time for you to experience my comfort. And that's what the image of Father God brings.

SPEAKER_00:

If you haven't chosen a word for the year, heartlifter, it would be comfort because I he I know my community. I have spent lots of time with lots of women. And I am at the front of the line. And I think it's yes, shame. I have shamed the heck out of my parenting, but it's grief that I feel broke my heart. And I think the grief is the spirit that is bringing forth this lie to us. That it isn't we're not fighting flesh and blood here. It is principalities and powers of darkness that are hovering over. And you know, that's what you say on page 14, which is what I wrote in my journal. Like spiritual lies with an agenda.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

This has a huge agenda to a spirit of estrangement. Okay, Gary.

SPEAKER_02:

So let me explain how this live works, do you know? Sorry, sorry to cut in. I don't mean to be ruined. No, cut, cut in. I get excited about this. I do too. So here's how the lie becomes spiritually malicious. Let's say Satan targets a faithful spouse, a faithful mother, father's child, boy or girl, wooes them away from God, turns them in estrangement. So now the parent's heart is broken. One, over the actions of their child, two, over the absence of their child. And then Satan wants the parent to feel guilty. This is your fault. Three. And then four, and the parent to become angry with God. I did my part, you didn't do your part. And so he he can completely destroy our intimacy with God. And I wanted to write this book to say, watch out for these lies. Yes. Because that's the goal. Satan doesn't care what lie we adopt.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

His goal is I don't want you to be intimate with God. No. Because if you're intimate with God, you're receiving from the Lord and you're you're bearing a lot of spiritual fruit. And that ain't good.

SPEAKER_00:

He hates it with a vehemence. And hence we have the false agendas and things that we do. So what I'm hearing you say between the lines here, which is another chapter on control, is we need to take control. There's that agency, there's that autonomy. There is where we are just we are in control of the dismantling. He's not in control of dismantling us. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_02:

This is a chapter, the one on control and the need for spiritual adventure that really challenged me because self-control is a food of the spirit. There's an element of control that's valuable, but we're just not supernatural enough as believers at times. We think we have to make it happen. Correct. And I talked to a father one time whose daughter was not walking according to the Lord, and he's pouring out his prayers. And God said to him, I'm gonna answer your prayers, but you won't be the agent of that answer. You're gonna have to watch as I use someone else. That happened. The daughter came back and things were renewed, and it wasn't primarily through him. Jesus said to his followers, the wind blows. This is John 3.8. The wind blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the spirit. Do we believe that God is active? Do we believe that God supernaturally intervenes or not? That's that's what it comes down to. If I think I have to control everything, if I have to make everything happen, if I have to be the answer to all of my prayers, I'm holding on to control. Oh yeah. Spiritual adventure is releasing the situation to God, knowing that He knows better, He is moving. That doesn't mean I become passive necessarily. Oh no. It does mean I become trusting. He wants our children to be saved more than we do, He wants our marriage to be restored, He wants us to have our needs met financially, He knows what we need to do and what health we need for that. And so we're just saying, Lord, I I don't know what you're doing here, but I know you're doing something. Yes and it and it gives this sense of spiritual adventure. I the other side of this that was so big to me this chapter, I grew up thinking that a Christian is defined by what you don't do. Oh, heavens, heaven smoke or chew or go out with girls and do don't dance, don't dance. But the way that Jesus lived and what he taught with this verse and others is that to be a Christian is to live with your eyes wide open for spiritual adventure. Yes, God might might you bring somebody that just needs a word of encouragement? Yes, might you bring somebody that maybe they need a financial gift? Maybe they just need a smile or a prayer or something. And I've had times where Janelle, I I overprepare for my sermons, probably in the pride, right? Because I've got those geared up, and my wife knows I work really hard on sermons, and then one Sunday sermon, and I felt like it landed, people responded well. But this person comes up to me and says, Gary, that time we talked and we had prayer after the service nine months ago, you have no idea how it changed my life and how God used that. And here's the fruit of that. I didn't prepare for that talk, I didn't remember that talk. I bet I bet. But that's where spontaneous ministry sometimes just has the feel of the spirit that that practiced ministry doesn't. That's so good. God just uses you. Everybody needs that in our parenting, in our marriage, our kids need that. Instead of saying, kids, we don't want you to hang around with the bad crowd, we don't want you to smoke in between classes, we don't want you to do drugs or get drunk or get too close to your boyfriend or girlfriend. What if we send our kids out with, hey, how do you think God might use you today?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Can you go to school saying, Lord, maybe there's somebody on the bus, maybe there's a teacher that needs encouragement, maybe somebody needs to bring to our table at lunch, but give them the the experience and the adventure that God will use them.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Here, here's my thought, and you certainly clarify and help us because I I don't want to leave our conversation, Gary, without really learning. Okay, you've dismantled family first. I love that. And the practice in that chapter is to learn the preeminence of Father God. What does that really mean? And what does that look like as a practice in our lives? Because we're really adopters of new practices that lead us to spiritual maturity. So, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_02:

It means I find my satisfaction, identity, and meaning from being an adopted son of God more than being a husband of a happy wife or a father of a happy child or the son of a happy, a proud earthly parent, or not. Yeah, because if my my parents were believers. But if but I've talked to people, their parents aren't believers and they're ashamed. You're throwing your life away because they're going into the ministry, or you know, the the wife makes a choice to to be home or something instead of being the independent woman out in the field or whatnot. I mean, there's just a lot of reasons, or you let your children define your success as a parent. I had a friend who this was so powerful. He was going to a counselor, was one kid was breaking his heart, and the counselor said to him, You're asking something from your kids that they're not equipped to give. And he said, What's that? Validation of your parenting.

unknown:

Oh, God, that's so.

SPEAKER_02:

Their kids. They don't know what a mature parent is supposed to do. They do not. And and I've seen I've seen parents and grandparents renege on the truth and change the message of God because they don't want to lose access to their children or their grandchildren. Exactly. So they deny something they've always believed, something the Bible would teach very clearly. Yep. But they're not going to speak the truth. Now, we don't want to speak the truth in a self-righteous way. Oh, heavens, no. But I don't think that's those that that listen to you.

SPEAKER_00:

No, we are practicing healthy communication and healthy behavior, yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_02:

But it it does mean my my children and grandchildren's relationship with God is more important than their relationship with me. And I'm not validated by whether they say you're a good dad. I'm validated by God saying you're being a good father. So it's a complete change of focus. The shift, mind you, your affirmation and where you're looking to.

SPEAKER_00:

And you talk about that mental shift. That's very beautifully said throughout the book is this is a mental shift for sure. But we are spirit, soul, and body. So the shifts have to happen on all levels.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. That is just I think if we can really grasp that. Okay, so I wanna I want to close because I think along with that, whole teaching you just gave us, that is what is the road to the path of peace. Like I will never experience peace. Ever, if I continue in that mindset and I need validation from my children. And I'll just never end up in peace. Are and I did so it's very fresh for me, really fresh that if I keep living that way looking for that kind of validation, it's not gonna end well. I'm not gonna be that wise mature woman who is at the forefront of my family. Okay, so how do I get on that true path to peace, Scary Thomas?

SPEAKER_02:

Peace is one of the best things about being a Christian, and we don't emphasize it nearly enough. But throughout the Bible, it says the coming of the Messiah brings peace. 19 of 21 New Testament letters end with or begin with an exhortation or a blessing of peace. When the angels announced that Jesus was here, what'd they say? Peace on earth with the coming of Jesus is peace. And the highest blessing was in number six. Yeah. The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you. The ultimate, the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace. We should be a people of peace. Peace should pervade everything that we are, and we should value our peace and guard our peace. Here's the lie, though. We think peace is situational. I'll have peace when I'm completely healthy. All of my family members love me and love God. My I have a certain financial number. I'm happy with the person who's in the White House or controlling Congress. We have like 10 things. We do. If I can make these things true, then I'll have peace. Yeah. Biblical peace is relational, where our peace is found in knowing God's love and protection. Where even if it's not okay, I'm okay because of the one who holds me. One of the images I use in the chapters, imagine you're in in, I don't know, let's say Galveston, and a Cat 5 hurricane comes through, and you're in the house, and you're in, let's say you're in the bathtub in an inner bathroom where they kind of tell you to go, where that's supposed to be, and and the the house is literally blowing apart all around you. Yeah. You see cows flying, right? Yes. But then Jesus walks into the room, and however you want to picture it, maybe he takes your cheeks in his hands. I like to picture a 10-foot-tall Jesus wrapping his arms around me from behind. Yeah. It doesn't matter what's happening around me because if peace is relational, Jesus has got me. I'm going to open my eyes and watch the storm.

SPEAKER_00:

Which is a woman.

SPEAKER_02:

Because if Jesus is holding me, I've got nothing to be afraid of. So I tell a story about a woman whose son was on a ventilator with COVID, who had just been diagnosed with cancer, how she experienced peace, the difference that peace is relational, and there is a recipe for peace based on that relationship. Now we don't obviously have time to get into all of that. It is in the book.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not trying to be a shameless huckster here, but oh no, shamelessly huckster, because it's it's uh underlining every word. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

But it is, and you know, and I've found I'll just say this again as a guy who's 64. The worst use of my time and thoughts throughout my life has been fear.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's just a waste. And fear is often putting yourself in a situation without God's presence.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And then something comes and it happens, and you're like, well, it happened. It might not have been pleasant, but wow, how much time I lost because of that. I I think of some friends of ours, dear friends, who she had a dysfunctional background. She wanted to feel safe. She married this really strong charismatic guy. He could bench press 400 pounds. Oh my god. That's a that's a ton. If people don't three years after they were married, he was diagnosed with MS, and his progress very quickly. And he went from being this big, strong guy who could carry her to using a cane, to walk her, to a wheelchair, to a motorized scooter. And one time they were at this dinner, this is when things had really progressed, and they were laughing, they're having dinner, they had some friends around. And I'll never forget when Stacy told me, she said, God convicted me saying, Stacey, this is what you feared that Daryl's disease would advance to the state it is. But your family is here, you're laughing with friends. And she said to me, Gary, my fear of MS did far more damage to my marriage and family than MS did to my parents. Wow. It was wasted time, wasted worry. That's why we need to know the recipe for peace. We need to experience peace.

SPEAKER_00:

And we need to really know and understand. Because those are the two words we started with. Know and understanding. The preeminence of Father God's presence in our life. There it is. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

But we've gone more than your 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_00:

I know. It's okay. I'm sorry. I told you I wouldn't be able to. Thank you. Come back. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01:

I'd be happy to. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for listening, Heartlifter. What a privilege to be with you today. Let's keep this conversation going on Substack at Heartlift Central, Instagram at Janelle Rarden, Facebook at today's Heartlift with Janelle. And if you would be so kind, please leave a review and a rating and support the show through any size donation, tax deductible or just a gift. All the information you need is on my site, JanelleRarden.com. Heartlifter, remember, you have value, worth, and dignity.